The Iceberg Strategy: Ine Van Wymersch, Drug Commissioner

A country drifting toward narco-state. The answer isn't a hammer. It's warm water. 

Belgium is one decision away from becoming a narco-state. Judges in hiding. Prosecutors under armed protection. An 11-year-old girl killed in a drug-related shooting in Antwerp. The country hosting Europe's second-largest port now seizes over 120 tons of cocaine a year. And the Belgian government handed the mission of stopping it to Ine Van Wymersch. 

 
Ine Van Wymersch became Belgium's youngest Public Prosecutor at 39, after years as a youth magistrate making the kind of decisions that change a child's life forever. In 2016, she was the calm voice of a traumatized nation following the Brussels attacks. In 2023, she was named Belgium's first ever National Drug Commissioner. She now operates under armed protection. And she refuses the obvious answer. 

Her view: more police will not save us. Belgium needs a "warm society." 

Her iceberg metaphor cuts the noise. Above the waterline: shootings, seizures, violence. Below: corruption, money laundering, addicted parents, kids growing up without a chance. Attack the iceberg directly and a new piece grows back overnight. Warm the water around it, with education, jobs, mental health, dignity, and the iceberg starts to melt. 

Her work sits very close to a question I have lived with for years through Live for Good : how do we stop losing young people before life has really started for them? My years at Microsoft taught me that no organization, however large, beats determined people working from a shared narrative. Ine has built exactly that narrative for Belgium, and it deserves to travel far beyond it. 

In our conversation, we explore: 
→ Why repression alone cannot beat organized drug crime, and what "warming the water around the iceberg" really means 
→ The three pillars of her strategy: disrupt logistics, follow the money, rebuild society 
→ The story of Elvire, the illiterate woman approved for euthanasia who asked Ine to write her life 
→ How terrorist networks and drug cartels recruit the same vulnerable youth, and why a closed job market is a national security issue 
→ Why "a warm society" of education, mental health, and opportunity is the only sustainable defense against narco-states 

 
"If we warm up the water, we are creating an environment where organized crime is not surviving."
Ine Van Wymersch, Belgium's National Drug Commissioner 
 
🎧 Related Episodes: 

• Élisabeth Moreno, "Realise the impossible" 
• Muriel Pénicaud, "Lead like an orchestra conductor" (employment and skills as the foundation of a resilient society) 
• Jacqueline Novogratz, "Building a better world together" (empathy, storytelling, and dignity for those society has excluded)

#PositiveLeadership #IcebergStrategy #WarmSociety #NarcoState #YouthOpportunity 

New here? Subscribe to Positive Leadership & You for one edition a month, written for leaders who want to build companies and communities people thrive in. https://www.linkedin.com/newsletters/positive-leadership-you-6970390170017669121/

Want to go deeper? Listen to the Positive Leadership Podcast on your favourite platform. 130+ conversations with the leaders, founders and thinkers shaping a more human future of work.

🎧 Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/fr/podcast/positive-leadership/id1574911588
🎤 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1EdnJcYgh9nXPTFJ5euOBf 

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : Hello and welcome to Positive Leadership Podcast, the podcast that helps you grow as an individual, as a leader, and ultimately as a global citizen. I'm Jean-Philippe Courtois. Today, I'm honored to welcome a leader confronting one of Europe's most dangerous and defining battles: the fight against organized drug crime. At just 39, she became Belgium's youngest Public Prosecutor, already known for speaking harsh truths about a justice system under strain. Then in 2023, after a young girl was killed in a drug-related shooting in Antwerp, the Belgian government created a new role to confront the growing national emergency, and they chose her as Belgium's first National Drug Commissioner. Her mission is stark: help stop Belgium from sliding toward a narco-state. Today she leads the country's response to organized drug crime. To win, she says, society must also offer young people education, opportunity, and hope. Ine Van Wymersch, a very warm welcome to the Positive Leadership Podcast.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : Thank you, Jean-Philippe. Thank you for having me.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : You're more than welcome. I always like to start with my guests by understanding where their journey started, their childhood, their family, the values that shaped them. I understand you are born in Brussels. I understand as well that your dad, Guido van Vijamers, was chief of the Brussels capital, El-Saint-Paul-les-Hons. And so growing up with a father in law enforcement must have given you a unique perspective as well on justice, safety. and challenges facing communities. What was it like growing up as a daughter again of a police chief in Brussels?

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : Well, first of all, have to say that my father didn't have the habit to talk a lot about his work at home. In the first place, he was just a normal father, just as anyone else. And with growing up, you start to understand that your father is not doing a regular job. He was a lot on call, for example, when we went to the cinema. When he was on call, we always went with two cars because you never knew if he

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : job.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : had to go for example and he was also the one of the first dads I knew with a beeper you know this semaphones thing so my father was the kind of man who jumped into cafes, grocery stores to ask if he could call back the number that he was seeing on his screen, which I thought was very embarrassing when I was little. So, but later on, I understood that he was a crime fighter, actually. He studied law school and then he followed a bit by accident. He worked at the police. It started all with a student job, I understood. And so he started at the bottom of the police in Brussels and years went by and then he ended up as being the chief of police of our capital. Yeah, of course, he shared his values with us. It was about justice, about equal treatment, about rights of defense, about not abusing violence. Police has always been discussed when they come to action. It's not hard enough or it's too hard or yes, it really depends on whose perspective you're on.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : God, yes.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : He always told me that dialogue is often the solution. And he was very proud of the fact that in all these years of career, he never had to use his gun in any kind of situation for him. was like, yeah, it was an honor that he didn't, not because he didn't, he was in his office all the time. No, he was a lot out there in the streets, but with dialogue and with an open mind also. He confronted a lot of delicate situations. And that's something he always told me, listen first, because if you listen, you might hear something that you don't know. And if you talk, you hear something that you already know. So that was the kind of advices that me and my brother got when we were little, when we grew up.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : When you grew up, do you remember actually maybe one of those days or nights when the beeper started to blink and something really bad happened and your dad had to go in emergency and I don't know, you something terrible happened and maybe the day after he tell you the story for once.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : Well. Well, we had the gang of Nivelles attacks here in the surroundings of Brussels and in Flanders. That was a moment, I was quite small, I was five years old, but then was the first time that I realized that my mom was very preoccupied and they couldn't reach each other. And normally we had swimming class and after swimming we had to go to the supermarket and that's... That was our Friday night ritual and my father knew that. But that day my brother was sick, so my brother was ill, so we didn't go. But they couldn't reach each other and my father thought that we were there, we might have been there, and this is really the pre-cell phone era. So that was the first time that I knew that my mother was very concerned, but she was not showing us. And then we also had this...

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : Eura. Yes.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : We had some escapes of criminals. We had Patrick Hamers and Philippe Lacroix, very famous Belgian perpetrators and gang members actually. Yeah, and he was behind them and you could follow it live on television, but what I didn't know that he was really involved in the case and that my mother was potentially watching her husband and...

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : Thank try me now.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : These are things that he told us afterwards, yeah. But the things that marked him most are these cases where children were involved or where he had to arrest the father of a child, for example. And where you always see that a case always has different perspectives. And even if you arrest a criminal, if he's also a father, you still have a child there.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : Later.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : watching you taking his father away. that's, yeah, I know that these cases where children were involved or even children were killed by their own family members, like a suicide and first killing the children and the wife, these are the kind of cases that when he came home after such a case, he was very silent. And then...

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : parents.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : know as a child, know this is not the moment to ask a lot of questions. The story will follow, but not today.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : stayed silent at those times, I guess. Do you think that even when you are five or maybe a couple of years after, this triggers something in you, about, there's something going on in the society, in the surroundings, in Belgium, and I need to be part of that. Maybe not as a policeman, maybe a policewoman, maybe taking up a role, but was there something at the time?

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : Well, he was not bringing up like the hero side of being a policeman, but I think we often realized that we were very lucky where we were born and we were lucky that our family... I grew up in a very protected environment. My parents raised me to become like a strong adult, responsible adult and responsible teenager also. I could do nearly everything I wanted to do because I was growing up in a peaceful and protected environment. And I think with the job of my father, some other kind of world slipped into our family. you realize not everyone has this kind of lucky family situation. I think the fact that...

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : safe environment as well, guess, yes.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : safe environment and where things were right. know, this strong sense of not supporting injustice, not supporting inequality. That is something that I felt growing in myself when I was young. And then afterwards I was very active in volunteering and in working with children. And then you saw it from very closely that the world was not as nice as the world in which I was growing up.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : Can you share with us as well a few words about your mom because you talk about your dad and in a way your broader family environments growing up and the role of your mom as well and maybe your brother and the way you shaped some common values altogether.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : Well, my mother was very important to me because she showed me a role model of a working mom. She was very ambitious in her career. In fact, she was the one that was traveling for work. think when I was 12, 13 years old, she started to work like almost a week, a month abroad. She traveled a lot. She was... She was very passionate about her job. She was working for a private company and she, Tetra Pak, maybe you know, these are the drinking, the packaging company. And she was very passionate about the environmental aspect, about ecological impact, about waste.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : Company,

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : She told us a lot about taking care of what we, reflecting on what we were using, if the packaging could be recycled, be conscious about the waste we were causing and the damage we were potentially doing to the rest of the world. And she was also in communication, she was breast responsible. So she always showed me that you can have both, you can be a caring mother and you can have an ambitious career and you don't have to choose. If you're well surrounded and if you dare to ask help to others, you can really handle. And she also showed me that you don't have to do everything yourself. You can ask help to someone else. And for us as a child, was okay. I was 10, my brother was 8 when we came home alone after school and by ourselves.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : Are you on? Yes.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : We had this very nice neighbor, a lady living next door, and we always knew if there was something wrong, we could go there. And that, for me, I never felt abandoned. I never felt left alone because I had a house key. And at that time, sometimes it was, you are the kind of child who has the key of a house. That means no one is there. For me, it was like, yes, I have the house key, the key of the house.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : I can.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : I'm independent. If I want to eat two biscuits first before I have some fruit, I can. So my parents, both my father and my mother always trusted us and gave us trust first. And this is something that I take with me when I'm a team leader. I act based on trust and we'll see if someone is not worth it. Okay. I'll, I'll deal with that. But my basic.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : Mmm

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : Position is one of trust. So, yeah.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : Trust you, trust the people working with you in the first place. of course, as life goes, you see what they do or they don't do. But no, wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing. It looks like you had two very, I mean, two great inspiring, kind of inspiring role models. It was your dad with strengths at the same time, very calm, it looks like, but certainly fully on control of his mission. And your mom as well, very empowering as well. traveling, doing... to work as a woman, and yet giving the key of the home, the key of the place, is your brother, which I think gives you lot of confidence as a kid compared to some other childhood. I'm sure we'll discuss more later. So I'd like to continue now the discussion, of course, talking about your studies. think you studied law at, and sorry for listeners who are Dutch or Belgians as well, because my Dutch accent is terrible. I know that. So apologize for that in advance. You studied law, I think, at KU Leuven? one of Europe's most prestigious law schools. You describe yourself as a disciplined student, never missing class, even after partying all night as well, maybe. We'll discuss some of those parties with us. And from April onwards, you would go into hiding and study 10, 12 hours a day until exams were over. So very hardworking ethics, I can see that. So where did the discipline come from again? And what drew you to low specifically at the time,

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : Well, the discipline was necessary to have a long summer. So if I wanted to party and if I wanted to take advantage of two or three months of holiday, the discipline was the only way to get there. I understood that quite well from the beginning. It was work hard, play hard or play hard, work hard. It depends on what comes first, but you need both. And I like to be in control. So not missing class for me is a way to stay in control and to know what kind of things we are learning at that time. And then I also knew this is difficult part here I should study a bit more. It's really about being in control. And I always try to control my controllables. So that was a way of... know, discipline is comforting me. And it's true that from the first of April, I completely disappeared and I started to study. But that was the time where you only had exams at the end of June. So it was possible not to do a lot. For me, I always went to class, but part of that, I was just having a normal student life. Truly, I just had lots of fun with lots of friends and still when I look back at that time, it was just very nice. Yes.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : was a great time, yes. And what about lower, mean, what did you pick low, actually?

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : I was in doubt until I think I was like 16, 17 years old about, for me it was how can I have the most or the strongest impact on children's life when they are growing up in a bad situation. I saw a few of these situations when I was volunteering during the summer time. summer camps, things like that. And then I was hesitating between becoming a teacher, because then you have daily contact and you can really make a difference in children's lives, or becoming a psychologist to help them, or a journalist to write about the situations, or study law. Yeah, a lot of scenarios, or studying law and trying to become a lawyer or a judge.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : many scenarios. Okay. know ya.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : to have a...

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : So why did you pick that one, that troll versus the others?

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : I think that the fact that my father studied law and that so we had a lot of sometimes people coming over from that environment. Maybe if my parents were teachers that I would have chosen to teach, who knows? And journalists that my mother said, you can still write. That's not a full profession or something like that. I remember saying studying law and being a lawyer will not

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : It would have been a teacher. Who knows? Who knows?

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : is not saying that you cannot write and it became true. I wrote two books and participated in two others. So I'm not a journalist, but as a spokesperson of the Brussels Prosecutor's Office, I was in daily contact with journalists. And so I stayed a bit close to that profession. So.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : Books? Yes. We'll come back to that. Yes. jealous. Excellent. think we'll come back to that. We'll come back to the book and in a way also the way you pick your words. I think you're a great storyteller as well. Let's just pause for a second and we'll come back to that with your listeners. So after law school, I think you did your legal internship at the Brussels bar, work as a legal advisor to the local police. And then in 2011, at age 31, you became a youth magistrate at the Brussels public prosecutor's office. And I must say to all listeners, that role is unique. You prosecute juvenile offenders, but you also protect minors working closely with social services, obviously against family, and making life altering decisions about children's futures. So what made you choose to become a youth magistrate? And what was it like making decisions that could change, that would change actually children's lives forever? Big decisions.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : Well, it came first a bit by accident in the way that it was my objective. It was my goal to become a juvenile prosecutor. But you have to do traineeship. So in 2009, I started the traineeship at the prosecutor's office. And then at 2011, as you said, I became a prosecutor. But in fact, the head of prosecution, our chief, the boss, called me in his office and he said, yeah, you know, I'm sorry, but I only have a place left at the juvenile section. And I was really happy about that. still at that, I said, I tried not to be too enthusiastic because it was clearly not the way to go. But I was like, okay, good, fine. I'll do that. Yeah, I count on you. And then when there is a place,

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : And you said super.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : a possibility in a real section, I will propose it to you." And I was like, what should be the real section then? Yeah, and then it was about real crime, they said. It was the organized crime or the sexual offenders section. But then I was like, no, but I'm in the real one because I'm where it starts. And these minor ages, they do everything.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : In the real section, what is that? Wow, okay.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : They commit sexual offenses. They do things with weapons. They are selling drugs. It's just their age that is under 18, but part of that, they are involved in any kind of crime. So that was for me very interesting to learn everything that I could learn. And then on the other side, you really have this double mandate. You're not in prosecuting crime and investigating crime. crime all the time. You're also investigating children who are growing up in vulnerable situations. And then you have to take, in the first 24 hours as a prosecutor, you have to take these measures that are necessary to protect a child. And that means that sometimes you need to ask the police to go and take a child away from his family or from his environment where he or she is living. because the environment is toxic, is violent, is abusive. So, yeah, these, think I remember every call I've made to the police to take a child away from his environment, because this is not a decision that you take daily. For me and for my colleagues, this is really last recall. This is really the last thing that you do if nothing else is helping or possible. and you do it to protect the physical or the mental integrity of the child. These are the Friday evening calls that you get from the social services. They tell you, this is the day before the weekend, we are not sure if this child will survive, sometimes literally the weekend. So, okay, then you have to do something. You cannot say, I'll go home first and reflect a bit on that. No, you're the one responsible. So yeah, these are very invasive decisions you take.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : and It must have been very hard, starting as an intern, course, then progressing your career, but would you mind, of course, anonymously sharing one of the stories that kind of moved you the most in terms of a child's life being, in a way, your hands, at least at one moment, in terms of the decision you had to take for that child?

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : I remember cases or a case where we, where the child remained saying that she loved her mother, of course, which was good, which is a good thing to hear. There were always men coming over and they were abusing her and then I asked the police to take her away and then a few weeks later you see When they are 12 plus, you see them in court, they can come themselves. then she was very angry at me. And she said, you ruined my life. You ruined my future. I want to go back to my mom. And I said, yeah, okay, but you know, it's not safe there. And then she said, why do you take me away? Why don't you take those men away? And there you feel how you are making the best of the bad choices. But in the mindset of that child, it felt very unfair that she had to leave her mom because her mom was not making the right choices in choosing men. And in fact, these men were not acting right. So I still remember that she said, why don't you take me away? Why don't you take them away? They are wrong. And that's really in your face.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : the table.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : never forget that because you are at two meters of that child saying something that is very right. In fact, yeah, that's something that you never forget. Another story like that is when a hospital is calling you and saying, there is a mother here, she's addicted to drugs, she will give birth in the next few hours or days, but you will have to take... the child away, not literally away, but we have to take it away from her. The child can stay with the mother, but the mother cannot leave with the baby. That's decision you have to make. And then you know that this child is not even born, does not even have a name yet, but you already have a file. And the only thing you need to do is fill in the name. And then we are waiting in our office to...

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : from there, yes. Yeah.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : for this child to be born? And then you say, what kind of start is that? I already have this file here. It already has a number. My decision is made. It just needs to be born and then we can protect it. And then you say, what a start to life.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : course, Just bone. Well, thank you for sharing those incredible stories, and I'm sure very hard stories that you have in your mind and your heart during your life. I'd to come to another actually very tragic moment for not just Brussels, Belgium, but actually for Europe. From 2015 to 2017, for many of the listeners, actually wherever you are in world, you may recall that Europe... was shaken by a relentless wave of ISIS-inspired terror. From Paris, with the Charlie Hebdo and the Bataclan massacres, to Brussels, Nice, actually, which is my home city, Berlin, Manchester, Barcelona, and Belgium again stood at the center of that storm, a small country, yet one of the most deeply affected at the time, with Molenbeek emerging as a symbol of radicalization, recruitment. among marginalized youth. And then came March 22, 2016, when two bombs exploded at the airport, Brussels. And one hour later, another strike, think, Melbeck metro station. 32 people were killed, more than 300 were wounded. It was Belgium's deadliest attack since World War II. And you know, you are serving, think, at the time, as spokesperson for the Brussels public prosecutor office. And suddenly you became the face. communicating with victims, families, the media, and a traumatized nation. Take us to that day, please, if you can. I know it's not a very hard memory, but what do you remember from that day? And how do you find the strength, of course, the courage, to communicate with clarity, to confront as well with compassion, when the entire country was in a deep shock?

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : Well, I remember that I was driving to Brussels to my office. It's in the center of Brussels, the prosecutor's office. And my chief, the head of prosecution, he was always driving like 10, 15 minutes behind me. We came from the same direction, driving towards Brussels. And a friend of mine who was at that time, he was giving his first interview as the chief of LUCAM, the threatening assessment. agency and he was giving his first interview and he said can you listen because we have this habit to give each other feedback on how we're doing and things like that and I said okay so I was listening to him on the radio and in his first interview he interrupts the interview to say I have to take this call and I was like this is strange that in your opening introduction interview

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : good. Yes.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : leave the studio to take a call. That was weird. So I call my boss who is driving behind me. I said, you should listen because something is not good. Something is happening. I okay, what channel? Okay. So he goes to the same channel. And then I hear that there is an explosion in the national airport. And he says, okay, we'll meet straight away at my office. So I came there. I went to his office.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : is happening. Yes. See you.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : And while I was sitting with him in his office thinking how can we help the colleagues because the national airport is not located in Brussels. So it's in another area and we were thinking how can we help out the colleagues as there was also an explosion in Brussels on our territory. So it's like, okay, so we are now confronted ourselves with an attack and the National Crisis Center opened. So we said, okay, we'll go to the crisis center and see how we can. help. have both the same coping style. think it's just act, start to do things. And then to tell you how we were not conscious about the situation, we wanted to take the metro to go to the crisis center. So we arrive at the metro and say, no, not possible. There was a policeman there. Shut down. It's just not. So we went on foot, which was not very far. So we go there.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : Handle that. Well. Shut down. Wow. Yes. Yeah.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : And at that time, the case was on the federal level taken over and the federal prosecutor asked me, can you go to the spokesperson of the federal prosecutor's office and help him out? Because there were millions of phone calls, the world was looking at us. And so with all the spokespersons from police, from defense, from several institutions, we said, okay, we will...

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : to take, yes.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : become one team, one communication team and okay the federal prosecutor needs to speak but we will prepare everything and also do the monitoring. We had this huge back office in the crisis center of people who were monitoring what was happening on social media. And at a certain moment these people who were monitoring social media they came to us and they said well a lot of people are looking for information about their missing relatives. And they were going from one hospital to another one to ask to check because there was no phone communication. So people were like driving around like crazy. was the attack was at the airport and in the metro station with where a lot of people working for the European institutions were on that line. So it was a very international. The impact was also very international. So a lot of people were getting frustrated and also putting on social media that they were getting frustrated that there was not a one voice communication or not one number they could call or one point they could go to. So I said, okay, I will bring that message to the decision-takers and I will suggest them to open a hotline or whatever. So they said, okay, that's fine, you go there. So I go to the bit the oval office if you want to the room where all the decision, yeah.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : Yet. the equivalent. Yes, Yes.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : where all the decision makers were and I asked to speak and said, okay, yeah, well, from the communicators, discipline five, there is something to say. So I explained it the way I explain it to you now. And they said, you seem like having a clear idea on what we should do. Well, you can do it. I was like, okay. So arrange a place where you can welcome

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : Just do it. Okay.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : relatives where people can go to, where they can get on one single point all the information so that the hospital desks are not overwhelmed by all these people. They have other things to do. I was like, okay, and they asked me, where should we do that? And just at that time, we got information about the fact that we were fearing an attack on caretakers, on ambulances.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : Deal with, yes.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : a second attack and so I said okay this should be a safe place where we go to if we bring people together then we have to make sure that where we are gathering people that it is secured because if if not we risk another attack on on the place where we gather people and so I said yeah why not a military hospital but I was just standing in front of someone in a military uniform that

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : said about that. Yes.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : this idea, yeah, I said, yeah, why not a military hospital? Good idea, military hospital. I wish I could say this was a very over thought, strategic thing, but sorry for that. It's sometimes you need to make a instinctive decision. And they said, okay, fine. I said, okay, I will do it on one condition.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : that's not just... Yeah, of course. instinct.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : that I can take, that I can choose a colleague that I take with me. I want to do this with someone I trust, I know, and someone who knows me. And this is the way that I want to do it. Okay, fine, everything was okay. So that's, we left that day, the two of us, to the military hospital, and I came home 10 days later, I think. And with them, yeah, I stayed there.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : And I know, yes. Yeah. 10 days after. Yes, the whole time. Yes.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : for the night. But that's the good thing about being surrounded by a military environment because they provide everything. And they really take care of you. This is why I understood why we need an army because at a certain point I was doing phone calls and arranging things when someone of the military was standing next to me and he handed me like a small bag with a meal in, with a bread sandwich in it.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : course. Cheers.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : And I say, yeah, thank you. Yeah. Yeah. And I put it next to me and he keeps on standing there. And I was like, yes. And now he said, yeah, I wait until you eat it because if not, you will just leave it next to you and continue. Yeah. So I was like, okay. So this was the first time in my life that I ate a sandwich with a sergeant or someone, something next to me, but it was very true. What he said, if he would have left.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : need to eat it so that you collapse. You'll collapse. I'm going to eat.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : the sandwich would still be on the table. So and then that's how we, we had the mission to receive all the people without any news. And we did that, we had to facilitate that because of course we had the Red Cross, we had other services doing that with us. And we had to facilitate the identification of the literally injured victims. So we had to make sure that everyone,

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : all the yes.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : could do his job there and that we identified everyone without making any mistakes. Because sometimes, some people said, why does it have to take so long? Why does it have to take so long? And we didn't want to make mistakes that were made in other cases. you... People say, I will recognize my daughter. said, yes, but you have bias. Your mind doesn't want to recognize or wants to recognize, to have an answer. This visual identification, we cannot do that. So I had to explain to the large public, to the Belgians, but also to the international community, to the service of the king, to ambassadors, why we were not, yes.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : big one. to check the DNAs, guess.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : what it meant to have a formal identification. It means it's an identification based on DNA, on dental records or on fingerprints. Nothing else. But that means that you need to get DNA from India, for example. When everything is down, how to be sure that you get the right DNA sample to compare with? I also learned that, for example, in Poland, They don't keep dental records at the dentist. Everyone takes his dental records home. Europe is not unified at that point. it was very challenging, but I was also with my colleagues and the whole team because every 22nd of March we meet still with everyone who was involved together. We eat spaghetti together.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : course, many France, yes. Together.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : that we did it within five days without making any mistake.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : That's amazing. And I know that you are rewarded with a NoWall for the best Dutch language spokesperson with the work you did. And I'm sure it's just listening to you, right? It's deep into your physical memory and guts memory. Now, I'd like you to ask and reflect a few years after. What did you learn fundamentally from that experience when it comes to leadership and the crisis? What does it take?

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : I think taking a decision is what is needed. And having things done is better than having things perfect, because perfect never gets done. So I think they want a leader to take a decision. And afterwards you can reflect on it and you have to, because you learn a lot from the decisions you've made yourself. There are things that I would do different. today. So you never skip the evaluation moments because sometimes we are happy that the crisis is over and we move on. And it's a bit contraintuitive to go back to the crisis to reflect on the decisions you've made. But you really have to force yourself to do so because I really learned there that I'm not the standard, not as a person, but I mean the way I think.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : I'm Yes.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : is not the way that everyone is thinking. For example, when you have to make a decision, can the family have a last goodbye? Can they see the dead body or the remains of a dead body or not? I learned from the people from DVI, from the Disaster Victim Identification Team, that this is a decision that is belonging to the family and you cannot decide for them. You have to prepare them. the best way you can to take the right decision, but you cannot decide for them. And sometimes, yes, I remember this father who said a last goodbye to just a piece of hair of his daughter because nothing else was left. And I could not imagine that that would not cause more damage or more grief, but this father was so grateful.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : It should be their decision, yes.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : He said, I recognize her hair, it was her hair, I know it's her and I will bring her home. that is something that, the fact that this colleague from DVI, from the police told me, don't decide. Let them decide and don't judge the decision. That is something that I take with me forever.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : well, that's a huge, huge takeaway, I think, in terms of in terms of all of us as humans and the way you took it in. So I wanted to continue on this story because the perpetrators were connected actually to the November 20, 2015 Paris attacks, which happened in my city where I live, actually, I remember vividly. And part of the same terrorist cell was a brain out of Belgium, actually. And the profile was very familiar. think young men from marginalized communities radicalized online and in local networks, traveling to Syria and returning to plan attacks. So from your experience with the attacks and again investigations, what did you learn about how terrorist networks recruit vulnerable young people back to young people again?

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : Well, you say it right. It's about vulnerability. It's about the people that we leave behind as a society. And if they don't find a sense of belonging in the legal society to call so, someone else will give them a sense of belonging. And in this case, it was ISIS. In my actual job, it's drug-related gangs who are offering them an identity to be someone. This sense of belonging for young adults is so strong and this is like a basic need. think Maslov should add it in his pyramid because it's basically human and if they don't feel connected, we can sometimes say, okay, this is a lost generation. It is not lost, it is there. And if we don't take care of that generation,

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : with you. So, Yes, yes.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : they will come back in our face in one way or another. And we cannot make ourselves believe that we choose if we take care of them or not because they will choose for us. that's something that is very complicated to say to a society that is deeply hurt, that is deeply injured, that we should start to take care of these young people. It's a very complicated message.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : agree. I'd like to explain this community. By the way, I'm like you, have a strong belief that anyone needs and wants to be part of the community. And then, of course, what is that community? That this person has a chance or opportunity to belong to or not. But when you see the sense of strong identity, the sense of purpose for hopefully good communities that can communicate that

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : Sorry.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : kids or chives or youths, it makes such a difference on the other side of the equation. So I'm with you and I think it's something that is very much, I mean, kind of underestimated in terms of the rationale by which those young adults decide to join a very different type of community indeed for the worse. So I'd to come back to another, think, and you've been living, you keep living some incredible moments. In 2018, while you're still serving as the US magistrate, you receive a phone call that I think would change your life and eventually become a book. You talk about writing a book and you did a couple of books. A woman named Elvira was trying to access her USE card file and she'd been in stonewall for weeks. And you sense urgency in her voice and you track down the file. basically, know, what you discovered was devastating. Elvis's mothers had abandoned her at birth. Her life was a cascade of neglect, abuse, foster care, failures, systemic indifference, and she had three children of her own, but lost custody. And now in her late 40s, she was approved for euthanasia due to unbearable psychological suffering. And the psychiatrists gave the green light on one condition. she had to write a letter to her children explaining why she was choosing Athanasia. But Elvira was illiterate. So when Elvira said, Ine, no, just need to find someone who can write my story, what went through your mind?

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : Well, I was thinking I can be that someone. Well, that was actually, yeah, she was sitting, in fact, she was sitting in my office because she asked me, can I come and thank you personally for tracking down my file? And I was thinking, what is the worst thing that can happen? Because it's a very unusual question as a magistrate to receive. And I was thinking about all kinds of safety issues and

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : Immediately.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : Should I admit her to the building and how will I explain that she needs access and how will I explain to the colleagues what I'm doing with this woman in my office? And then I said, okay, fine, you can come and I offer her a coffee and she just wanted to shake my hand, look me in the eyes and say thank you. That was the only thing she wanted. And then she said, do you wanna know something? And I was like, yeah, what? In fact, I cannot read nor write. I was like, huh? Yeah, you didn't know, as she said. said, no, I didn't know. And she said that was why it was so complicated to spell my name to everyone, to find my file. And she had all kinds of tricks to not to, she was so ashamed about the fact that she could not write or read to hide it. So I was like, oh no, I didn't know that. And she said, yeah.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : hide.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : It caused me a lot of trouble during my life and now it's also my last obstacle to die. And I was like, huh, how, explain me. And she said, yeah, I have to write a letter to my children, just as you said, to explain why I choose euthanasia. And yeah, I need someone, I hope I will find someone who will write that letter. And immediately it came through my mind, so maybe. can just write a letter. How difficult can it be for her? But I didn't say anything at the moment there. So we finished coffee, she leaves. And I had to go to a training for a week. So I was a week not at home, bit missing my children and thinking about the woman who had to miss her children for a whole life. I said, yeah, that must be so painful.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : For her, yes. This case, yeah.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : And the fact that she can't even die now, she's not getting permission to die in a decent way. I will write her an email to say, well, I can do that. Can I help? And then she said, okay. And then I was talking about that to two friends, journalists who were at that time, it was still new making podcasts. And they said, but Ine, that's a great story. We should make a podcast of that.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : Can help, yes.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : I was like, okay, I was just going to write a letter, you know, but they said if you really want to listen to her, we will have to record her story and you can write a letter. I was like, okay, fine. So I invite her to the seaside for a weekend with these two journalists and one of my best friends because I didn't want to do the challenge alone. I always choose someone that I know very well to be by my side. And she just very openly told her life story, the story of her life to us. And it was impossible to resume it in a letter. it became a book. But for me, it was very contraintuitive because as a prosecutor, you always have to search for the truth. And here I listened to her.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: :

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : without investigating anything. I just accepted this is Elvira's story. This is the way she lived her life and this is her idea about her life. So I always had to calm down these prosecutors reflexes of is it possible? it, yeah. And yeah. Thanks, but.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : get you. Every fact he told you. mind and consciousness. So actually, you shifted the hats, right, and became a journalist, which is one of the four roles you wanted to do as a kid. okay, here you go as a journalist. Exactly. Yeah, listening.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : not an investigating journalist, just a listening person. But then I realized how complicated it is just to listen and to accept every word someone else says as being this is her truth. And I accept it, not mine. And it doesn't matter what I think about it. And that's the way the book was articulated. And in the book, of course, I reflect

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : Whatever she says, yes, Yes, not yours, yes. Yes. Hmm.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : on what she tells me and what my experience as a juvenile magistrate says. So in fact it becomes a dialogue between her and me. But it's a story of her life in the end, it's the book. And it's also a podcast.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : Can you show the audience actually? Yes, what is the name of the book in English? Because in Dutch it's hard. I got this translation, I don't know if it works for you, let me know. It says, if your cradle stands on quicksand. Does it make sense?

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : It's in Dutch Yeah, I don't know what the exact translation is, but it's okay that's exactly that. Where you are born is very important in how your life will go. yeah. And the podcast is called Three Days. And it's really the weekend we spend. And the journalist got also a prize for that.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : it defines kind of your life actually. three days, which is the weekend you spent. Yeah.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : the way they made this podcast.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : Amazing story, I think very well, I'm sure, for a prosecutor. So how did your writing of your story change you, actually, as a magistrate and as a person?

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : Well, I think it makes me judge less or less quickly. It was really a traineeship in listening and understand that what is easy or just very logical for me or in the world where I work and live in is just not common for everyone. When I say that there are still people that cannot read or write these days, for a lot of people it's like, hmm, where? They must not be functioning society, but Elvira was really part of society. She was going to restaurants, she was living her life, she had friends. It's not written on the front of your head what your situation is. And people are making a lot of effort. to suit in the expectations we have to behave. That's okay.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : No, it's a, it's a, yes. No, I'm gonna say it's a, it's an amazing story. No, I like to shift gears if you don't mind and talk about the kind of the next chapter again of your many lives in a way. In 2019, you are appointed Belgium's youngest public prosecutor overseeing again, apologize for my terrible accent, the Allu-Vilvoort district in Brussels. You are outspoken about the justice system dysfunction. publicly calling it absurdist, and I think due to chronic underfunding and absurd working conditions. But Belgium was facing a crisis that transcended any single prosecutor's office. The country was becoming Europe's cocaine capital and the port of Antwerp, Europe's second largest port, by the way, had become the primary getaway for cocaine trafficking. In 2023, authorities seized over 120 tons, drug-related violence exploded, shootings in Brussels, five bombings in Antwerp, assassination attempts on judges and prosecutors. In January 2023, 11-year-old girl was killed in a drug-related shooting. The nation was horrified, and the Belgian government created a new position, National Drug Commissioner, and they chose you. So why did you say yes? And what do you see in this world that made you leave your position as public prosecutor to on this massive challenge.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : I said yes very clearly because I wanted to be part of the solution. I was facing all these problems, all these societal issues. And if they offer me an opportunity to be part of the solution, the only answer is yes. It was starting from scratch. We were the youngest startup in the government with the largest societal expectation, I can say. But... But still I'm very happy that I took the challenge because I think we can really do something with the National Drug Office. We can really make a difference. So I loved my job as a public prosecutor in the district surrounding Brussels. had phenomenal colleagues, which I still see quite often. this train was passing and I had to get on it.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : I love what you said, know, considering yourself as a, almost as an entrepreneur of this government startup, right? So start with a blank page. Belgium's first ever drug commissioner coordinating across federal, regional, local authorities, police, customs, justice, international partners, and I'm sure many more other constituencies that you have to deal with. So what was the scale of the problems that Belgium was facing and is facing still today? And what did you learn again, your very first ones that shocked you and things that the public might not actually understand, public opinion might not fully understand about that challenge for the society.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : Well, for me the shock actually was the fact that with only law enforcement we will not get there. And until then and until recently we were only talking about how should we organize the police forces, how should we make them communicate with customs, what should the magistrates do, but in fact... Law enforcement is quite well organized and everyone knows quite well what to do. They are in a lack of material and people resources. But except of that, the legal framework is quite all right. Everyone's mandate is clear. And I started to realize if we are going to keep on doing the same thing, the result will not change. So we have to figure out something different. We need to add something. Our strategy is just not working with only putting more law enforcement out there. So then I try to develop a common narrative which was not existing in our country. we, if I may, it's about the iceberg strategy. It's,

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : Please do tell us a story because I think it's an amazing story. Again, very much alive with your startup mindset. Any startup has to tell a story to start being alive. So what was your story approach? Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : if we want to get everyone involved, we need a story where everyone has a role to play. And the iceberg strategy, it says, in fact, that if you compare criminal organizations to an iceberg, you have above sea level, you have the shootings, you have the visible parts, you have the seizures, you have the violence that we see. Under the waterline, you have all the money laundering, all the intimidation, all the corruption, all the integrity issues, but also domestic violence due to aggressors who are using drugs and all the people killed in car accidents with someone driving with drugs and alcohol in his body. So under the waterline, also a lot is happening. And what we do until now is... directly attacking the iceberg. We ask customs to seize the cocaine. We ask police to arrest the high value targets and we ask magistrates to bring them to court. But what policemen are saying is we arrest the drug dealer. So we cut a piece out of the iceberg. We are not finished with our paperwork and there is already someone else out there in the streets to sell drugs. So the iceberg is growing immediately. to his position again. It's not melting. The iceberg is very sustainable. So I said, okay, what we have to do is that we have to heat the temperature of the water. If we warm up the water by providing education, by having a poverty policy, by investing in mental health, by making our economy resilient against money laundering, because we really need private sector there.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : back. Yeah, at all. Yes, it is.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : to look at all the logistic chains. When we warm up the water, we are supporting the work of law enforcement and we are creating an environment where organized crime is not surviving, where organized crime is not well-doing or is not doing well. So this is a warm society in all kinds of senses of the world, is the only sustainable solution. two words is the only sustainable answer towards organized crime. so we have to add to that direct approach, we have to add this indirect approach and then everyone until the individual level, everyone in the society has its role to play because it often goes wrong for example, when it comes to public private partnerships, when we are mixing up roles, when the police is talking to a private company and saying you have to give me all the camera images you have from your parking. No, then you are talking to a private company as being someone who is involved in the direct approach, indirectly attacking the iceberg. If you say to the company, if you see something suspicious on your parking lane, then you can call this number and etc. Then everyone is sticking to his role and everyone is comfortable and can do what he or she has to do. So this common narrative...

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : No, think. Yeah. Yes.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : that I can bring this narrative to schools when I talk to teachers, I can bring this narrative to an automobile constructor to talk about figuring out a new car model with less hidden parts, for example. I can bring this narrative to everyone, to every stakeholder in society, and I can tell them, this is also, you also have a job to do to tackle organized crime. And that is where the perspective is.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : Dorothy can hide. Anyone? Yes. I love it. Yes. No, I love it. I think you've done a wonderful job, you know, which is always so hard. And we hear such stories often from startups, as you said, or businesses in terms of painting a picture to create that burning platform. You talk about the burning weather, right? For the iceberg to melt. And then I think something that resonates with me as well, I'm very involved in my life as well with social enterprise, social innovation, you know, young people. the impact entrepreneurship and so on. And all those young people and others are shaping what is called, I'm sure you know well, the theory of change, which is okay, here's the problem we are trying to solve, narco-state terrorism. And here's actually the picture of all the ramifications, not just above the sea, but below the sea level. And all the different pieces that you mentioned, and many of them, you know, starting the childhood. in terms of education, terms of, you violence, in terms of many things happening. And back to even the stories you told us, the being of this discussion podcast, where we miss the opportunity to prevent that use to get into basically a negative circle, get connected to the bad community as we discuss the communities together. So I think it's an amazing, powerful thing. But I'd like you to to shape exactly a sense of reality when narco-states is all about because I think not all people understand that. I was given a couple of numbers, don't know if they make any sense, that the drug gangs, of course, have been building a parallel society, not just in Belgium, by the way, it happens in my home country in France as well, with more than 25,000 people operating within criminal networks, exploiting over 85 % of legal businesses. People don't realize that legal businesses. So tell us more about that ecosystem, the way it's built. It's so hard to dismantle that really for good, right?

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : Well A narco state for me is a state where you don't know anymore who are the good guys and who are the bad guys. That's basically what a narco state is about. And how do the bad guys do that? It's about intimidation, it's about corruption. And if we look at what drug-related organized crime looks like, it has really several faces. It's like a multi-headed monster. It's about cocaine trafficking, it's about corruption, it's about money laundering, it's about producing synthetic drugs, it's about 1,000 things. But this several-headed monster only has one heart. And the heart is the money. Everything they do, they do it for the money. So our strategy is if we take down the criminal business model, then we hurt the monster deeply. And this is our only chance to avoid that we will become a narco state.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : Thank

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : Because as you said, Europol identified more than 800 criminal networks with 25,000 people involved. That means that these 25,000 people are living among us. They are not hidden somewhere being criminal. The difference between underworld and legal world, we cannot maintain that. That means that these people are working in our offices. These people are working in our administrations.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : No.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : If you want to produce synthetic drugs, you need help from a chemist, for example. If you want to build up an enterprise, if you want to build a business, you need help from accountants, from notaries, in fact from people where I'm sure of for 80 % they are living a perfectly legal life, but they are helping organized crime because of the money, because of the power. And that is where it really goes wrong. And that is why we need to get to these enablers, if I can call them that way, who convince them to choose the side of the good guys. Because if they facilitate the way they are doing, some of them are doing it today, the way they facilitate the bad guys, well, this is really where it is undermining our democratic state. This is where it has an impact. on our well-being and on our legal economy. And sometimes I hear arguments like, yes, but privacy, et cetera, is very nice. But one day there will not be any privacy anymore to protect. So this is really about protecting our democracy.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : anymore for sure. I'm with you 100%. I think too many of our governments across the world, including Europe, are very shy on that and are putting too many constraints in really showing the crude reality of what is this. I love your positioning. know, several headed the monster clearly. And I like you need to connect back in a way the terrorist networks and the drug cartels networks, because I think in essence, they exploit some of the same vulnerabilities, right? We talk about marginalized youth from poor neighborhoods in different cities. They recruit immigrants as well, second generation communities. They prey on school dropouts with no access to legitimate employment. They offer belonging, we discussed, purpose, identity, and they promise power and respect to young people. So to you, is it the same faces of the same problem?

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : There are of course parallels, yeah. Well, what we see is that terrorism is not needing that much money. Terrorism is quite cheap. It's a bit weird to say, but to commit an attack you don't need an awful lot of money. But to live the luxury life of drug dealers, you need a lot of money. The engagement of money is a bit on a different scale if you look to both of them. But if you look at the young people that are getting involved, they are targeting the same vulnerable youngsters. Same. It's about sense of belonging, but with drug-related crime, it's also about money. They promise a quick way to earn a lot of money. You see it in the movies, on TikTok with influencers. They are all having this bling-bling. brand, clothing, cars, et cetera, et cetera. So the sense of belonging is not to an ideology. In terrorism, they say you will become a good person. You will be part of the elected. It's about ideology. In organized drug crime, there is no ideology at all. It's about status, it's money. So there is a difference. But.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : Money. Emporio. Money Emporio. Yes.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : We see that children are also, or youngsters are being recruited through the internet, for example, but also by people they know and that where they think that are great or role models, I would say. But what we see recently is that young people choose themselves to be part of a criminal organization, although they know that it's not good, it's not legal. And they say, Like I'm looking for a student job. I'm a young guy from Brussels or from Antwerp and I try to work during the holiday in a small shop, et cetera, but there are no jobs for us. And since the system of the flexi jobs, for example, or the economy not going the way we want it, we see that one child out of three in Brussels is living in poverty. And these young people, don't find any...

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : this. in.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : private companies or administrations to offer jobs for young people. So that means they say I sent my CV to company A, nothing. Company B, nothing. Company C, nothing. So the only thing that is left is the D of drugs. And they say we know that it's not good to deal drugs. But what other options do you have for me? What do you suggest?

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : we have. so, yeah. And so what is your response? Because as you said, it's a multi-pronged approach, right? And I think you talked about three pillars of your strategy. Could you share that with the audience maybe, know, and the three big things that you're focusing on to at least have extensive impact on this incredible hidden network?

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : Well. But what we are trying to do is to take down the business model. That's one thing. Secondly, is put barriers in the logistic chain. And thirdly is to create a resilient generation. If we create a resilient generation for the future, a generation that knows how to say no, knows how to support peer pressure, know how to make the right choices. then we have the best chance for the future and we are making life very complicated of criminal organizations. But talking about these youngsters looking for a job, I stop talk to the youngsters in a way. I try to get the companies in Brussels involved in this debate. These children don't have the opportunity to talk to the business man and woman. This is something that we are trying to do to say, okay, what is... Why don't you have any jobs anymore? What is blocking you somewhere to be, yeah, why are they no job opportunities for these youngsters? And that's a very interesting debate because you hear a lot of good arguments also from these companies, but this is really a problem that we need to solve together with the private sectors because young people didn't change. It's the complexity of the world around them.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : I'm employing. Yes. So.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : that really changed. So we cannot put all the responsibility on the shoulders of young people.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : with you. So what is the problem we should solve first? I know it's a hard question because there's a number of issues coming together. And you mentioned a number of stories which show that actually super well. But in terms of education, right, in terms of the roles of family, in terms of skills to get a job and getting the trust in the system and flexibility to get such jobs. etc. etc. Where are you focusing on with the help of many others? Because you cannot do it all with you to make some real moves in society.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : Well, we talk about the iceberg strategy a lot. We talk about, we try to get to see people seeing their role in that iceberg strategy. And for me, it is about convincing private sector to open up the employment market towards these youngsters. Because we see that we have a very close, closed... employment market. When I look at the Netherlands, you see people from all kinds of regions and colors working. You meet them everywhere in a legal working status. In Belgium, we have quite closed market there. If your name is Samira something, you can really forget to receive an answer on your CV. And I always do the test. with my own mailbox, how many emails do I receive in a week from someone with a not European name? None. That says something about how open-minded are we and how much talent are we wasting? Because it's also about wasting talent. And if you are discussing this topic, you always need to have to find out where is the win-win, what's in it for me.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : There he is. None. Yes.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : It's very clear what's in it for the young people, but it's very hard to define what's in it for private sector. And then it goes about the fact that you are looking for talent, that you have a lot of jobs open there and you don't find proper people to fill in. So there is a mismatch in a way between this enormous population that is there willing to work and the need of these companies to get people on board with the right talent and skills. So we need to fix the mismatch to a match again.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : So just building on that, you just shared with us a couple of minutes ago, think, an incredible, terrible stat, actually. You said, I think, that one child out of three in Brussels lives under the poverty level, right? One in three. What's the connection again between what I would call urban decay, right? Basically, poverty and criminal recruitment. As I record through this podcast, for our listeners, We have municipal elections in France, have tons of elections for the mayors. And I think many people would argue, and I would tend to agree, that most of the national politics don't necessarily matter for the people in the streets of a city. And so the work that is done by cities is super important. Of course, it depends on legislation, what kind of budget, what kind of missions do they have or not versus regions, blah, blah. But what is your view on that? And being in Brussels, which is a big city with many types of challenges, what should be done differently?

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : Well, local authorities are very close to the people, to the citizens there, and they know quite well what to do, actually. But the loudest voices are not asking for more poverty policies. They are not asking for more budget for the homeless. They are not asking for more budget for education. And that is really what needs to change, because this... polarization, this seizure between the poor and the rich, this idea that my individual freedom is above the needs, the collective needs, in fact, that's a fiction, that's just not true. You are living in a dream if you think that by reinforcing your individual freedom and your individual chances that you will get somewhere. And I think we should... explain it better and show better what the collective win is if we leave no one behind. And I think there is not a common sense of urgency there to protect our collective win because we are going towards a lose-lose situation. We are now in a lose-win situation, but the group that is winning is getting smaller and smaller. So we are really moving on to a lose-lose situation. That is what we need to change. And it's about explaining. When I was treating cases of sexual offenders, I had the hardest time to convince people to invest in sexual offenders. But in fact, investing in treatment for sexual offenders is our best guarantee that our daughters and boys

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : Smarter, yes.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : will not become the next victim. And this is something very contraintuitive for people to accept, but it is the truth. If we put people in jail, one day they will come out. If you don't do anything with them during the time, because that is a really very interesting time. You know where people are, they have time, they come to the appointments, because they are there.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : That's right. Yes.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : That is really an enormous opportunity to invest in the security of your society. And what do we do? We put people in jail, we close the door, and we throw away the key. And one day, people are coming out and nothing has changed. Contrarily, your society will not be more secure. And that is where it is about.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : well, think it's a yes. And actually, being in one of those big topics, right, meaty topics, you also have written a second book in English translated by The Right to Remain Silent. that okay as a translation? Okay. You can say it in Dutch, by the way. Very harsh. Okay. Sorry. I will not say that. Yeah.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : Omerta. Yes. Zweigrecht. Well, it's not a very poetic Dutch, but anyway. If you say it in Italian, it's Omerta. No. Well, the thing is that I wanted to write a book to explain to young adults how the judicial system works. Because my own children...

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : So the right remains silent. Roberta, yes, I understand that.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : said mom if you don't tell anything about the environment where you're working, no one is ever telling us anything about it. On the other hand, at the news we are always talking about protecting the state of law, protecting democracy, but it's not meaningful. So that's why I said okay, I will write a story and the story is a bit a patchwork, yeah, story again, I'm a storyteller, maybe that's my profession.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : Sorry. I can see that. You're going to end up being a journalist, a writer for life.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : No, it's a bit of patchwork of all kinds of cases that I treated as a juvenile prosecutor. So it's a story that you can read and if you understand all the terminology, it's just a nice story to read. But there are blue pages in the book and on these blue pages we explain judicial terminology or judicial concepts. like the right to remain silent, for example, or what is a lawyer, what is the difference between a prosecutor and an investigating judge, what does it mean that you are condemned, what does it mean to be released, things like that. Because I truly believe that if young people... know more about the complexity of the world surrounding them, that they are stronger in life. I'm really convinced that knowledge is also part of strength. You have life skills, of course, which are important. It's not only about knowledge, but knowledge can help to have this feeling of, I'm in control. I know what's happening around me. And it's not only about juvenile crime. The book starts with the girl. who has to go and see a family judge. This judge needs to take a decision about the custody, about where will she stay at her mother's place or at her father's place because the parents are divorced and the child needs to be heard. There is a hearing session with the judge and this girl is terrified. She says, I have to go to see a judge. And in fact, no one can explain her what will happen. And this is a situation where a lot of children are in. And I'm really wondering how many teachers, how many other children, how many peers can comfort her and say, look, this is nothing to worry about. Yes, but will what I say, will my parents know it? Will they know what I will say? Things like that, concerns, real concerns of this little, of this young girl. I tried to explain in the book.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : In a book.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : what it's about. And I hope they will read it in schools and that they will talk about it in schools and that it will serve as a kind of a manual for teachers.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : for pedagogy. I'm with you. think there's so much to be done in schools in my home country as well. I'm kind of supporting some NGOs in France who are actually doing a great work going school by school, colleges by colleges to share and talk about justice, institutions, voting, democracy. What is it? The way it works every day. And the right you have as a child as you grow up to vote for the decisions of your lives.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : and to understand what's going on.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : And I think in many ways, I think many governments, and you know, I wouldn't just talk about at least in my country, have certainly done much less than they used to do in the past in terms of that civic kind of pedagogy education, that if you feel the same, and so there's kind of a dismissal on that. And there are all those big question ignorance of many kids and young people becoming adults about the way actually our democracy works.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : That's true, I see the same thing happening with us here in Belgium and it's really a waste of talent and energy because there is a lot of energy among young people. They are really willing to step forward and to defend their point and they are well organized because we often...

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : And the way and the day, Yes. Big time.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : say that, yeah, but we cannot talk with all the youngsters. We don't have to do that. They are organized in youth parliaments. They have their representatives. We can really talk to a generation without having to talk to every individual young adult. So it is a pity that we don't listen more to them when it comes to decision making.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : with you. My last question before we get to the last section on leadership, your skills and more on positive leadership. Obviously, in your role and where you live, Brussels is at the centre of Europe and the EU for all the reasons we know, of course, on the Commission and all the institutions in Brussels. So what role do you think should the EU play in fighting organised crime, particularly when it comes to privacy rights, security, encrypted communications, and more subjects that I know you've been focusing on as well.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : Well, drug-related organized crime is a global issue, I would say. You see it on a very local level and it's also very global or globally organized. So it means that it requires also global measures, global action. So we already talked about the local municipalities and local authorities. So we have the European level and you have like the world. On the European level, I think we should really protect our economy.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : It is.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : sphere or economical territory because today we are accepting that big tech companies are providing tools like telegram signal snapchat whatever these are platforms that are mainly used or or very or also used I will say by criminal organizations and with the false argument of protecting our privacy these companies are not collaborating with law enforcement. And I'm very clear on that. It's a false argument. Because before, when everyone was talking on the phone, also the criminals, no one put it in doubt that an investigating judge can listen to, can ask the police to listen to phone conversations. And also always only the relevant communication was put in the file. Now that they are talking through WhatsApp or Snapchat or whatever, all of a sudden, an investigating judge cannot have access to this encrypted communication because they say yes, but the judge will have access to all the communication that is not different than 10 years ago when we were talking on the phone. And this judge will ask the police only to put the relevant conversations into the file. And he will only ask to have access. to communication between person A and B, if he has serious elements that they are committing a serious crime. Not just like that. We don't ask to open up all the conversations of everyone imaginable in the world. No, it's about the mandate of an investigating judge. It's a magistrate. It's someone with a very clear and unique position in our society. If we are not giving him this mandate anymore, because technology... was advancing, where are we then? So if we don't do that, it means that we give a whole digital playground to the criminal organizations to say, well, we will not collaborate with law enforcement. And on my platform, you can do whatever you want. You can sell weapons, you can sell drugs, you can... can torture people and put your movies on it. You can do whatever you want. But I assure you, I will not collaborate with law enforcement. This is not the world I want to live in. And I am not for a police state where everyone is controlled by cameras at every corner of the street. But what I do want is if we have the tools and we have a judge, a magistrate, in very clear circumstances with severe elements of a severe crime,

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : We need to use them. Yes.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : that he can do his job. Nothing more, nothing less. And this hasn't got anything to do with privacy. This is just one of these topics where I think that Europe should take position. We cannot leave this pressure of privacy lobbyists anymore because there will not be any privacy to protect in the end.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : No, I think you're super clear and I wish you to become the next security privacy commissioner, maybe in the US to get that change. But you will do it. I know. So getting to the end on leadership, Ine, you describe yourself as someone who likes to be in control. And we heard that at beginning of story. I think I kind of share the same philosophy. I love to focus on what I can control.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : If I feel that I'm part of the solution, I will do that. No, it's a joke.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : and not waste my time on things I cannot control at all. I think you are clearly, we felt that, very disciplined, organized, relentless, a wonderful communicator as well. But you also wrote a book, of course, and you share the stories more than the books, the three days you spend with Elvie, With showing a profound empathy, compassion as well, being illiterate and listening and just stating her truths, not the perspective you may have on the case. So I'd love to understand how do you actually balance, how do your discipline and empathy coexist in your leadership and in your mind, right, when you have to make decisions?

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : complex question. I would say interesting question also. I just try to stay close to myself in a way and I follow my intuition a lot. I think the value of intuition is really underestimated. Not only your intuition, but for me the intuition is the first indicator. It's a bit like the canary in the coal mine. It makes you feel if it's going well or not. And then you need to look for objective elements that confirm or not what your intuition is telling you. So that is where I get into the controllables again. It's about asking a lot of questions to people that are surrounding me. I really, it's not easy not to surround you with like-minded. It's really a challenge because we always say that you need to get surrounded by people who dare to challenge you. Yes, it's true, but it's not easy to find them. And on the other hand, you also need some clear and trustable alias.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : What?

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : need people with you that go with you through the storm and that are not letting you down halfway somewhere. Because a lonely captain on a ship, it's very unuseful. So I always also try to look behind me to see if everyone is still there. Because it's good to be on a high-speed locomotive, but if the rest of the train is stuck in the station, you're not getting anywhere.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : All the way, yeah. Yes, when it's getting tough, yes. Yes, yes, yeah.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : And I think that is my empathy side where I look behind and I look around me to see is everyone all right? And is everyone with me? Yeah. Because being a front runner, you need to as a leader, you need to step up, you need to step forward. But it's the complexity is in finding the right balance between looking around you and looking behind you and stepping forward. I think this is like the very

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : With me, yes. Yes, yeah.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : balanced constellation where you're in as a leader.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : I think it makes a lot of sense. I'm a football fan and to me looks like kind of a captain of the team who is in middle of the team players and is strategic enough to understand who is behind him, is ahead of him to make the right pass at the right timing to score and make a goal. So that's my analogy to talk about. Yes, completely. Yes.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : Because in the end, it's about making the goal. You can be the best team captain, but if you lose all the time, it's not very worth it either. So I think you need to understand that it's about making the goal also and identify quite well in what direction you're playing with your team.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : But absolutely. no.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : And that was a difficulty when I was at the beginning of this new agency. What was okay, but what is our objective? Are we going to fight for a world without drugs? No, not very realistic. Are we going to fight every criminal organization? No. What is our target? What is our main objective? And to go back to football, if you don't know where your goal is, yeah.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : you're lost.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : It's complicated to organize the team. You're lost. So that for me was the first big challenge.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : it's super articulate. Now again, continuing a little bit on leadership, you're also a mom, I think with four kids, including twins, if I'm not mistaken. And I think you, I know you've been public. Yeah, I got you. And you joke about jogging with your car keys in hand, just in case someone attacks you, by the way. And you live with constant...

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : That's why they are four. And I have the DNA.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : and you live with constant security concerns as well. So how do you manage this personal toll, this work, while being present with your family in a, what does it work in the day to day life?

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : I think there is a difference between being present and being involved. I try, I'm not so very present, but I'm very much involved, I can say. At least I hope that's what my children are feeling also. I let go the idea that I have to separate my working world and... my private world, this work-life balance thing was stressing me out because if you have to choose, no one chooses work. I mean, we all choose life. Then at least you're supposed to choose to put your children above your work, which is clearly the case. But on the other hand, I'm very ambitious. I like what I do. My work is giving me a lot of energy. And my children are bringing sometimes are bringing me back into the real world. This is the challenge, but I really try to be involved that they know that they can always call me also during the day. They don't have to wait until I'm finally home to tell me that there's something terrible going on in their life. And on the same hand, I will answer a phone call. at nine o'clock in the evening if something is urgent at work. So I think that I try to find the balance in by not sticking strict to a work and a life space. For me, there is one life and I try to live that to the fullest.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : and to bring the best in all across your lives. I think that's the reality of this so-called work-life balance. Actually, each one of us should have a philosophy of our work-life balance and not have a rigid structure for everyone of us. It doesn't work the same, depending on, again, your perspective in life, your family, whatever. I think it makes a lot of sense. So, Ine, you've had an extraordinary career. A lot more to come, by the way. So I think, yeah, I'm sure. So it'd be great to have you back in a few years, because I'm sure we've done a lot more. I think, again, you, magistrate, terrorism spokesperson, youngest public prosecutor, claim author, drug commissioner. In January 25, you received the Etienne Leadership Award for values-driven leadership in an extremely difficult environment that you share with us. And that recognition matters because

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : I hope so.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : What you are doing requires extraordinary courage. mean, clearly, amazing courage. I'm very much in admiration of what you do day by day and what you go through. And you've seen the worst of humanity, terrorism, child abuse, drug violence, systemic failures. But it's very clear that you never give up, right? So what advice would you give to young leaders who listening to this podcast? Whoever they are as leaders, right, they are alive, not necessarily just in the job, could be in family, communities. What advice would you give them for those who want to make a difference in difficult, dangerous fields like yours and others, which might be dangerous as well? What is that advice?

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : Well, would say dream big. I mean, it's okay to have maybe an abstract dream or purpose. For me, it is really making the world better. And it may sound very fluffy or abstract, but that is what keeps me going when I'm in doubt. And also, when you grow, it's not... how do you say it, linear, it's not linear. Growth comes in waves and it's with ups and downs and when you learn something it's often because something went wrong or because you got stuck somewhere and you find a solution or you find a way to overcome. And if you accept that

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : linear. Yeah,

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : growing is not linear, it's a lot more comfortable and you're not so easily stressed because your career is not going this straight line up. A lot of careers are not... linear path to the top. It's about discovering some side paths and sometimes going backwards or getting smashed against the wall somewhere and then get up again and move on. And you get up if you keep your dream alive and never let anyone tell you that your dream is naive or not realistic. We really need dreamers.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : Yep. Yes.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : to imagine us where we have to go to.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : No, I love it. I I love the fact that absolutely agree with you that, of course, making the world better, having a positive impact, which is at the core of positive leadership, by the way, and keep your dream alive while doing something about your dream every day, which you do. And I think all the stories you told us today, you know, goes in that direction. My very last question, I promise you, because it's been a long discussion. It's late in the night for our listeners. We're going record that podcast together in Europe. When you look back on your career many years from now, again, as I said, you have a lot more to do in it. What do you want your impact to have been?

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : it's about the legacy. It's about legacy in a way. Well, think if we, as a drug commissioner, I would say that if in a few years we say, okay, we stopped this negative evolution of evolving towards a narco state, we could really stop that evolution and turn the tide.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : I know it's a big one. Yes, kind of legacy, yes.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : I that would be a great achievement. Not me by myself, but if we could do it as a society, if everyone is involved in this iceberg strategy, I think that would be great. I hope we can do that.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : I love that. Yes. Okay. Yes. Let's all have those iceberg stories and do something about our own icebergs. I love it. So, Ine, thank you so much. It's been a wonderful discussion. think Ulysses proves again that the toughest battles require actually a combo of incredible strength, courage and empathy and compassion as well. And from your LV stories to the drag world to many other things you've done, Again, a huge congrats to what you do and your dedication to a better world, as you said. You will never refuse to give up on the young people where society has written off. And I'm with you on that battle. think that this is where positive leadership is the most powerful, is when the new generation is showing it and we give them the ability to actually be a force for change, for positive change in the world. So to all listeners, I hope that this story, I'm sure, inspired you a lot. It did to me. So if that's the case, please subscribe to Positive Leadership Podcast and please share as well your comments on the writing. Feel free to give five stars. Always welcome. And subscribe to my newsletter, Positive Leadership and you. You make continuous strides in your incredible mission and may Belgium find as well the courage to support the fight you are leading. Again, this is Positive Leadership Podcast and to all of you, take care. Thanks a lot. Merci beaucoup, Ine, for this wonderful conversation.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : Thank you, take care.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: : Are you? I know.

INE VAN WYMERSCH: : That's a lot of