Erased but Not Silenced: Leading the Global Climate Fight with Vanessa Nakate

What does it take to start a global movement when you feel like the world isn't listening?

Today, my guest is Vanessa Nakate, the pioneering Ugandan climate justice activist, UNICEF Goodwill Ambassador, and founder of the Rise Up Movement. Vanessa’s journey began in 2019 with a solitary strike outside the Ugandan parliament. Since then, she has become one of the most powerful and necessary voices in the global fight against climate change, demanding that the Global South—the communities most impacted by the crisis—are no longer ignored.

Vanessa’s story is a profound lesson in Positive Leadership. In 2020, she was famously cropped out of an Associated Press photograph with her white peers at Davos. She didn’t retreat. Instead, she boldly stated, "You didn’t just erase a photo. You erased a continent," using that moment of erasure to spark a vital, worldwide conversation about race, media, and climate justice.

In this episode, we explore what true, intersectional leadership looks like. Vanessa passionately argues that we cannot separate the climate crisis from poverty, inequality, and the empowerment of young women.

In our conversation, we explore:

→ How she found the courage to strike alone in Kampala, and how to take the first step when you have no followers

→ The Davos incident: How to turn being erased into a platform for global empowerment

→ Why climate justice IS social justice, and why educating girls is a critical climate solution

→ Building the Vash Green Schools Project to bring solar power to over 75 schools in Uganda

→ Why she chose to step back from the frontlines to pursue a Master of Public Policy at Oxford, and how she plans to bridge activism and policy

"When you are working with people, when you know that you have community, then it's easier to sustain the activism work in whatever field that you're working in... find your community, and it will make activism much easier." — Vanessa Nakate

If you want to understand what it really takes to lead a movement, build resilience, and fight for a future that includes everyone, this conversation will deeply inspire you.

🔑 Key Themes: Climate Justice, Youth Activism, Purpose-Driven Leadership, Resilience, Intersectionality, Community, Global South.

🎧 Related Episodes:

• Hannah Ritchie — Not the End of the World: A Data-Driven Approach to Climate Action
• Dr. Phumzile Mlambo-Ngcuka — Showing humanity to others
• Boyan Slat — Leading an ocean cleanup

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JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Yep. Yep. Hello and welcome to Positive Leadership Podcast, the podcast that helps you grow as an individual, as a leader, and eventually as a global citizen. I'm Jean-Philippe Courtois. And today, I'm truly honored to welcome a remarkable young woman whose courage, voice, and vision are helping reshape the global climate movement. In 2019, as a student in Uganda, she began speaking out for communities facing devastating climate consequences. droughts, floods, landslides. And what began as one personal act of conviction grew into a movement the world could no longer ignore. She's a UNICEF Goodwill Ambassador, Malala Fondball member, founder of the Rise Up Movement, creator of the Vash Green Schools Project, bringing solar power to 75 plus schools in Uganda, and author of the acclaimed memoir of a bigger picture. and as a viciure, a master of public policy at Oxford. She embodies positive leadership through courage, empathy, and a deep belief that climate justice and social justice are inseparable. Vanessa Nakate, a very warm welcome to the Positive Leadership podcast.

VANESSA NAKATE: Thank you so much, really happy to be here. Actually, I've graduated from Oxford now. Thank you.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Well, congratulations! So this just happened, right?

VANESSA NAKATE: Yes, I graduated in November last year.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Excellent. So Vanessa, I always like to begin, you know, by understanding where someone's journey started. Childhood, the family, the values that shape who you would become. You were born and raised in Kampala, Uganda. In a family, I think where education was deeply valued. Your mother is a teacher. You are the eldest of four children. And growing up in Uganda in the 90s and 2000s, I'm sure you witnessed first hand the impacts of climate change on your community. And so this is really something I'd like to understand is that, can you take us back to your childhood in Kampala and what values did your family again instill in you that still guide you today?

VANESSA NAKATE: Yeah, thank you so much for that question. I did grow up with both my parents and my siblings. And I think I realized much later on in my activism how much of the values that I learned as a child or as, you know, growing young adults really shaped my activism. And one of the things that comes to mind was the fact that my dad was so involved in Rotary Club activities. And I remember there was a year he was the Rotary President of one of the clubs in Kampala and he led a mission of planting trees across the country.

VANESSA NAKATE: I remember being excited about this, but also I remember asking for a shirt to be involved in this. But that was like years before I actually started activism. And I think in a way, seeing my dad already working to make the environment a better place, I believe that it did something in my heart that eventually

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Hmm.

VANESSA NAKATE: inspired me to become an activist years later on. And then really growing up, I think for my family, to many people the word sustainability, you know, seems like something new or something that you have to become. But when I think about my childhood, I realized that sustainability was literally the way of life. You know, when I think about how

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: And. Yes?

VANESSA NAKATE: our mom used to be or our parents used to be so paying attention so much to you know food and ensuring that there's no food wastage and if food stayed it would would keep it for the next day in the morning I think those

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Bye.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Yeah, Maurice is going to be challenging.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Hello, Vanessa? Vanessa?

VANESSA NAKATE: Yeah, I'm back.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: you are frozen. I think you can continue if you don't mind. You are talking about food waste. Maybe you just it's okay for you Tom.

VANESSA NAKATE: Yes.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Yeah, go ahead, Vanessa.

VANESSA NAKATE: Yes, I believe growing up with that understanding of, you know, the respect for food and not wasting it, but also even in how we got new clothes at home. remember in my childhood, you would get a new cloth like on Christmas. So once a year or sometimes on Easter. So that's twice a year. And as I grew up, I realized that We were already living sustainable lives even before people started talking about sustainability. When I think about how the fashion industry right now is heavily impacting the environment, when I think about the impact of food wastage, I realize that for many families like mine, sustainability was not something that we had to become. It was something that we actually lived. And I think that played a part in my Activism Journey.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: So it was really part of your life every single day, Vanessa. And would you mind sharing with me as well some of the discussions going on at the dinner table, maybe with your family, your siblings, your mom as well, maybe even your grandparents, just to give us a sense maybe of the values, know, and the conversation you're having as a family.

VANESSA NAKATE: Well, it's hard to point out a specific conversation on a dinner table because we did not have that growing up. I remember we like we used to get food and maybe either sit in the compound or sit in the sitting room on the mats. But really, we didn't have like specific dinner conversations.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Okay. Okay.

VANESSA NAKATE: But we did have childhood conversations about life and about dreams and things that we wanted to become. But in terms of values, I would say the values are also really rooted in my Christianity. I grew up in a Christian home. My parents raised us as Christians, and it's something that I'm glad that I was able to learn.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Yes.

VANESSA NAKATE: that I was introduced to because again, in my journey of activism, I later started to read, know, scripture in the understanding of environmentalism, understanding, you know, the heart of God towards environmental protection. And it made me realize that actually, in a way, even the values and everything that I have been taught, in Christianity since a young age played a really critical role in shaping me as an activist.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Yeah. Now we'll come back to that aspect of your education Vanessa, because I think it's certainly something very significant and relevant, Christianity in the way you think and the way you see the world. But can you tell us more about some of the early experiences you had in Uganda, whether again witnessing climate impacts in your community or seeing as well inequality, you know, or learning again from your family, you talked about going with your dad, planting a tree. So anything, any event in your mind as a younger girl that really awaken your sense of justice and sensibility.

VANESSA NAKATE: say this is something that actually happened in my when I was in high school and by that time I didn't know the word activism and I had no idea that you know what I was doing was activism at that time and I remember I was the school that I was in I remember the girls in my school were constantly attacked by boys from another school and there was a specific person or group of boys who would shame the girls in my school on social media and at that time it was mostly on Facebook. And I was really really disturbed by it, very disturbed because You know, you don't know who is doing this and people are constantly being shamed. I think for me, that is when actually the activist in me really awakened, but I didn't know what that was because it was a one-time thing. And then I just continued with school. So I remember creating an account on social media and every time this person would post something about a girl in my school.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Hmm.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Yeah?

VANESSA NAKATE: I never got to know the person and I believe they also never got to know me. But every time this person would post a shaming post about a girl in my school, because I was in a girl's school, I would respond to that post. And my continuous responses to those posts made the person stop doing that. Because they also realized that, you know, there is

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Yeah?

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Aha.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Okay.

VANESSA NAKATE: there is someone who is ready to fight back if you are attacking girls in high school. People never got to know. They never got to know that. But it's something that I believe really awakened activism in me, but I just didn't know that it actually had a name.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Yeah.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Yeah, interesting. What age did you actually started being active on social media?

VANESSA NAKATE: By that time I was, oh my, I must have, I think I was 16. Yeah, many people actually don't know this. I think it may be the first time that I've actually said this.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Okay, okay, okay, okay.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Aha, okay, so this is a scoop. Now, very interesting, obviously given the development of social media these days, which are even more troublesome in terms of, you know, bullying people and kids between each other's. Great to hear that you this very first reaction early on to fight back. So now I'd like to move forward Vanessa and talk about January 2019. I think you are 22 year old business student.

VANESSA NAKATE: you

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: at Macchiavere University, and you've read about Greta Thunberg striking in Sweden, and you decided to do the same in Kampala. But for most, my understanding is that you are completely alone, just you. Sometimes your siblings, the insides outside the parliament in the sweltering heat. So can you take us to that first day outside the parliament? What were you feeling and what kept you coming back, I think every Friday, when no one else was showing up.

VANESSA NAKATE: say that when I got to learn how climate change was really affecting the people in Uganda, when I really got to understand it, because it's, we do learn about climate change in school, but I mean, we never learned it to that place that pushes us to understand its urgency and also to understand how it was affecting people deeply. And when I really got to learn that and connect the floods and the droughts that were already happening in some parts of the country to climate change. In that moment, I wanted to do something about it. And I think it's the, it must have been the same thing that, you know, that was awakened when I saw girls in my school being bullied and being shamed on social media, which is sad that it's, you know, it's still continuing. Women are still constantly being attacked on social media. So I think it was that same feeling of wanting to do something about it that really led me into activism. I got to learn about Fridays for Future. I got to learn about Greta's work. I'm forever inspired by the work that she does and I'm really grateful that I got to learn about her work because it also gave me the strength to step out. to hold that very fast climate strike. was really scared. Being naturally, I was naturally a very, very shy person. It's much better for me now to, it's easier for me now to communicate because I think of the time I've spent in activism, but it was much worse for me to communicate just being. in the public eye when I just started. But then it was again that voice in my heart, that push in my heart telling me to go and hold this first climate strike. For the very first one, I had it with some of my siblings and my cousins. it wasn't easy. It was hard, but we wanted to do this. And we did it in different...

VANESSA NAKATE: locations, but it wasn't easy because most of them were all younger than me. And obviously, if someone saw us on the streets, would know I am the one responsible for bringing the kids on the streets to hold these placards. But then after that, some of my friends also started to join to join the strike. Sometimes it would be one person. Sometimes it would be two people. Sometimes it would be just me.

VANESSA NAKATE: And yeah, it was never easy even doing that climate strike at the parliament. I did one climate strike there with my friend Elton and it wasn't easy for us to do that. And I don't think it gets easier.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Okay.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: No, but tell us more about some of the connection you did there, because I'm sure that some people bumped into your right at the entrance of the parliament. Did you actually met with some MPs from the parliaments in Uganda or some other executives or media? How did it go, actually? How did you raise some interest from public opinion?

VANESSA NAKATE: would say that most people that, some people that saw me in front of the parliament with my friend or some people that saw me in the different areas where I would hold the climate strikes, I think they looked at me as this person who really had nothing to do and it was embarrassing for sure to stand on the streets because you know that's what I think that was the peak, my sister called it the peak of being cool, of doing things that people is so very cool. And I was doing this thing that people found embarrassing. And people did find it embarrassing because in the long run, after a year of my activism, even my dad told me relatives reached out to him. family friends telling him that I was embarrassing the family by standing on the streets. So yes, in the public there are people who thought that what I was doing was embarrassing and I think that was the bigger percentage. However, there were also people that thought that what I was doing was important. Because I remember the very first strike I had with my siblings and cousins, a lady came up to us and she told us about the incredible work we were doing. She told us about a school that was being constructed and trees were being cut down, and she was really bothered by that. So I would say that there were people that were on our side. There were people that didn't really know what we were doing. And then there were also people that thought that we were being an embarrassment.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: And it didn't bother you, obviously you kept going, you kept coming back all the time. I'd to connect that back to the mention you made, Vanessa, of your Christian face. Do think that it is that gave you that energy, that commitment? I think one day you said it gave you a sense of divine sensibility for activism. Can you help us understand what divine sensibility actually mean to you? And how do you see your face shaping your climate work, you know, in your childhood and probably even today, actually?

VANESSA NAKATE: So when I started activism, I didn't know the connection between faith and climate work. In fact, I didn't know a lot of things. I just knew that we were doing these climate strikes to raise awareness about what was happening in our communities, about the disasters that climate change was causing. But I actually didn't know so much beyond that. I didn't know the impact of the fossil fuel industry. I didn't know the impact of the fashion industry. Many of these things I learned on the job. someone can, like people say, to learn on the job too. So that is how I go to learn many of these things. And even the aspect of faith, it was not there in the beginning, but it came later on when I started to you know, again, because I was already a Christian. And then I started to ask myself, like, you know, what does God have to do about this? And like, would would God be an environmentalist? Would God be an activist? I started asking myself, you know, those questions, and they led me to try and read, you know, the Bible and see the connections. I really got to learn that.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: You

VANESSA NAKATE: The very first responsibility that God gave to humanity was to take care of the earth. And it was like the very first assignment that was given to human beings. for me, that was it for me. In that moment, it's like, this is it. Like, if God was like, God would be an activist. In fact, he's an environmentalist because he prioritized

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Yes.

VANESSA NAKATE: the taking care of the earth because when the earth is well taken care of then our well-being is also well taken care of. So then activism went beyond just being something that I wanted to do for my community but it became a divine mandate or responsibility and even purpose that I have on this earth and I mean I always have asked myself so many times What am I doing here on this earth? What is my purpose here? What is my role here? And when I got to learn about some of those scriptures that point to environmental protection.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: We've been cut again.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: think we're have a few edits on this one,

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Well, we had to have one, right? We never had them.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Take good care, alright?

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: see if she comes back she's going to reconnect I don't know if it was the power again or wi-fi

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to ask her just to continue on the same flow she was almost done with that question.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Ahem.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: What's that?

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Vanessa?

VANESSA NAKATE: Can you hear me?

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: We can hear you.

VANESSA NAKATE: So I've connected my phone to.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Collective value of the phone now.

VANESSA NAKATE: Yeah, I've connected via the phone so that it's more stable.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Okay. That might be better, Vanessa. Yes, thank you. I think what I suggest, Vanessa, you you're talking about like a purpose, I think, as the world where you are cat. So maybe you can continue and close and then we'll move on to the next question, which will be the Davos moment. Okay.

VANESSA NAKATE: Okay, all right. Is it okay if I speak now?

VANESSA NAKATE: So yeah, when I got to understand, know, biblical understanding on the environment and its protection, then activism became, you know, more than something that I wanted to do for my communities. It became something that I feel like was a responsibility or a purpose to do on this earth.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: No, very clear, very clear, Vanessa. And thanks for sharing this very intimate connection, in way, with your Christian faith and this awakening with your activism. Now I'd us to go to another, you know, what has been called a crucible moment in your life, which is obviously a very young life. By the way, for listeners, if you want to know more about what a crucible is, you should check out the episode with Bill George on North Star. It is one of those moments we have in our lives at different times, which is going to shape us. And I think that moment was for you, Vanessa, on January 24, 2020, you were in a place I've gone to many years in Davos for the World Economic Forum. And you are together with four other young climate activists, Greta Thunberg, Louise Annabauer, Isabelle Axelson, and Luchina Thiele. And you are giving a press conference all together. and you pose for photos. And the next day, the Associated Press distributes a photo from that event. Four activists are in it, all white, all European, and you've been cropped out. So what went through your mind when you saw that picture without you? And what made you decide to speak out publicly rather than staying silent?

VANESSA NAKATE: Yeah, I do agree. It was a very defining moment in my activism. think, like you've said, everyone probably has those moments in their life because what happened was a shock to me, but also what happened made me realize that you know, this world is, it can be hurtful and really cruel sometimes, whether someone has done something intentionally or unintentionally. And for me, that moment, right now when I talk about it, it's much easier because it's been six years. However, at that time when it happened, it was really a hard time for me.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Yes. Yeah.

VANESSA NAKATE: I was firstly in a very cold country at that time. So, extreme cold with heartbreak is not very advisable. So it was a really, really heartbreaking moment for me when I saw that picture because I really felt that I was excluded from the conversation.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Yes.

VANESSA NAKATE: And it made me feel like I didn't deserve to be there. And I definitely cried a lot from that moment. But when I saw the picture, my immediate thought was to ask why I had been cropped out because I knew that I was in the picture when we took that picture. So.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: soon. And so what did you do? I'm sure you cried a lot. Yes.

VANESSA NAKATE: And I think when I asked that question, I didn't really anticipate how many people it would reach and how many people would come to support me and ask that question as well. And I'm forever grateful for everyone who stood with me in that moment. But yeah, it was a hard moment for me.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: And you obviously reacted on social media, right? I think you had a response saying you did not just erase a photo, you erased the continent. Is that right?

VANESSA NAKATE: Yeah, that is what I said. Because in that picture, I was the only person from my country. was the only person from the African continent. And I was the only black girl in that picture and I was taken out. And at that moment, that is how I felt.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Yes.

VANESSA NAKATE: that this was beyond removing an individual from a picture. It was about removing the experiences and the realities and stories of people from my country, of people from my continent who are heavily impacted by a climate crisis that they didn't even cause.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Mm.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: So you basically stood up for your anti-continent, Vanessa, didn't you?

VANESSA NAKATE: I mean, if you say so, think I did. I believe that. I mean, I've said for so many times in that I keep on repeating myself that, you know, Africa as a continent is historically responsible for less than 4 % of global emissions. And yet it is on the front lines of the climate disaster reality. And while it's on the front lines of these realities. It is not on the front pages of the world's newspapers. I've said that so many times and in that moment I did feel that it had been cropped out.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Yes.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Yeah. So what a shame again for the organizers of that event and for the world. And since then, as you said, mean, you become one of the leading voices for racial justice in the climate movement. And, you know, the numbers tell the story as you just share with us, Africa contributes less than 4 % of global greenhouse gas emissions. And yet it suffers some of the most devastating climate impacts in the world. the Western developed countries responsible for the vast majority of historical emissions continue to pollute while African communities face droughts, floods, famines and displacements. And I think you've been articulating that injustice very powerfully. You said we cannot eat coal, we cannot drink oil, money will be useless on a dead planet. And you said as well alongside Greta Thunberg, where we may all be in the same storm, we are not all in the same boat. Can you explain us Vanessa, why centering African and global South voices is essential for solving the climate crisis?

VANESSA NAKATE: Yes, just to build on what I've already said, that many of these communities are not responsible for the crisis that they are experiencing right now. And they deserve to be in the rooms where decisions are being made. They deserve to be in the spaces where climate conversations are happening. You really can't... have climate justice if those that are being impacted the most are not in the rooms because you want to understand their stories. You don't know their experiences and you can't speak for their communities. I personally believe that communities must speak for themselves. And many times these communities are called missing voices, but they're not missing voices. They are actually speaking. They're just not granted given the platforms that amplify what they're saying. So I think firstly, it's important to understand that these communities are not missing voices. They are existing. They have been speaking for their communities for so long and their calls and demands deserve to be listened to and they deserve to be acted upon. Jen Fonda once said that there would be no climate crisis if it wasn't for racism. And someone may say, how is this even connected? But when you look at the history that has led us to the climate crisis, you'll find that this is a history that is deeply rooted in the extraction of resources from these communities. You'll find that It's a history that is deeply rooted in the extraction of their lands, extraction of their bodies through slavery. So you will find that the system that has led us to the climate crisis is the same system that allowed for colonialism, that allowed for extraction, that allowed for

VANESSA NAKATE: you know, stealing from indigenous lands, global South communities. And these communities still pay the price for that history. And now they're even paying for what is happening right now. And it's not just happening, know, indigenous communities. It's not just happening, you know, in global South communities, you know, across, you know, the small island states or across.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Yeah.

VANESSA NAKATE: the African continent or across Asia, you will find that it's even happening in black communities in the United States. You'll find that they are more exposed to living in neighborhoods surrounded by power plants or neighborhoods exposed to pollution of the air, the, you know, their water, of their land. So you realize that the very people that were deeply harmed

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Hmm.

VANESSA NAKATE: by colonial systems of oppression continue to be harmed by the climate crisis. This is why we need these people in the rooms where decisions are happening, because they know what is happening in their communities. They know the challenges that they face. And when they know the challenges, it means they also know the solutions that can make their communities better.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Yeah, it's I mean, you've been very clear about some of the historical context of that situation, Vanessa. And to me, your philosophy is pretty clear. I climate change, think you said is not about statistics or net zero targets. It's about people. It's about those who did not cause the crisis being on the front lines and their voices being unheard. So Listening to that, what do world leaders and Western audiences, I've got many listeners from the West on these podcasts, what do they fundamentally misunderstand about climate justice? And what needs to change in how we approach this crisis?

VANESSA NAKATE: I believe that sometimes people, especially from Western countries, don't really realize how big of a challenge the climate crisis is. And for many people, you'll find that climate change is a distant threat, not something that is happening in their communities right now. And also you find that in many Western countries, there are resources available to immediately support people. and help them recover from climate disasters. And I think we've seen that in some countries within Europe. We've seen the resources being availed immediately to help people recover, which is a bit different in other countries, especially across the global South. For... many communities in the global south, we are not waiting for climate change to happen. It is not something that we see from afar, something that's coming in the future, something that we have to, you know, worry that, you know, the children of the next generation are going to inherit. It is something that people are already experiencing right now. When you talk about food scarcity, It's already happening. Water scarcity, it's already happening. You just have to look at what the drought in the whole of Africa has caused. When we talk about floods, they are already happening. We are already seeing intense rainfall across so many communities. And I think that's what I would love people in Western countries to understand, that the fight for climate justice for the people in global South countries.

VANESSA NAKATE: It is literally a fight for life. It's a fight for life because there is a thin line between life and death for these communities. You know, when a disaster happens, it's, you know, it's not, it's, it's not just about, you know, the statistics that come from people that have been impacted. It's beyond that. It's what happens after that. Sometimes people, sometimes people end on

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Yes.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: So lies.

VANESSA NAKATE: you know, the news and what the news has, you know, reported on a disaster in a certain country. But entire, you know, social infrastructure is damaged in these processes. And it takes in these situations and it takes years for countries to rebuild their health facilities, to rebuild their education facilities. So for me, what I would want people in the Western countries to understand that. When we say that we may all be facing the same storm, but we're in different boats, we really mean that for southern communities, climate change is not something that they expect to see in the future. It is happening now.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Yes. Well, thank you for painting such a clear picture of the reality on the ground in Africa as clearly, I think, it's quite misunderstood across the world. And to continue on that dialogue, Vanessa, I'd like us to zoom on Africa in a particular country and place, I think you know well, the Congo rainforest. The Congo Basin rainforest for listeners is the second largest tropical rainforest in the world after the Amazon that we often talk about. And that rainforest in Congo is covering six countries and spanning 500 million acres. I think it's often called the lungs of Africa, absorbing massive amounts of carbon dioxide and producing oxygen that benefits the entire planet. Yet it's being destroyed at an alarming rate. deforestation, illegal logging, mining, agricultural expansion. And unlike the Amazon, which gets significant global attention, the Congo rainforests, this friction is largely ignored. The communities living there receive little support while their land is exploited for resources that fuel consumption in wealthy countries. Can you talk about that Congo rainforest crisis, Vanessa, that is... that is think broadly ignored, and what urgent action is needed to protect it and support the committees there.

VANESSA NAKATE: Yes, when I got to learn about the Congoran forest, I believe it was 2019, and I was giving a speech at Rotary Club in Kampala because I was invited and after my speech, one of the people that was listening asked me a question similar to what you said. He asked me why there is not much focus on the Congo rainforest and yet it is the second largest rainforest in the world. And why people looking at what is happening to it and you know the destruction that that was happening. And in that moment even I myself I reflected and realized that I did not know much about what was happening there. I knew about the Amazon, but I didn't know much about the Congoran forest, which is literally next door to me. So I decided to read about it. And I was really amazed by, at this point, I think it's not just the lungs of Africa. I think it's obviously the lungs of the world as well.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: the world. Yes.

VANESSA NAKATE: of the world. think it doesn't the existence of the Congolese forest is not just for Africa. I think it's for the world and its preservation doesn't just benefit the African continent, it benefits all of us. So in that moment, I really got to learn that, you know, was deforestation that was happening there. And I learned about the, you know, the millions of people that were reliant on this forest, many indigenous communities. And I decided to start, you know, a strike to, it was more like an awareness to save Congo rainforest and also really raise awareness on it. And in that time, I really did not know if it would have any impact. And now that I think about it, in almost every conversation I've had, there's been a question about the Congo rainforest, which makes me really glad that I got to learn about it and also to do like that awareness strike to tell people to save conger in forest, to tell people what was happening in conger forest and why it's survival is important for all of us. And to see that, you know, in some of the conversations I've had, there have been people who have said, I have never heard about this rainforest. Thank you so much for talking about it. So I'm... I'm just really grateful that I, you know, with some other activists that I've been able to work with and colleagues from actually the DRC, if I'm to name drop one of them, Kalonji Guillaume, he's been an incredible friend and colleague in working on, you know, the issues that are affecting

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Yep.

VANESSA NAKATE: the DRC right now. It's not just with even the Congo rainforest, but also, you know, with what many are timing as green colonialism, taking critical minerals from the Congo to power electric vehicles. So I think it's really important that people know that what happens in the Congo does not stay in the Congo. The destruction of the rainforest. affects all of us and also the extraction of resources from the GRC for critical minerals without advancing the well-being of the people in the country is an injustice to people like my colleague and friend, Guillaume.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Thank you for raising the awareness of that big issue, Vanessa, which is not limited to the Congo rainforest, but all the precious resources that are so much exploited in Africa and different parts of the world. I think one of the most powerful aspects of your leadership, and you just talked about it, is your intersectional approach. You've said repeatedly that kind of justice equals racial justice equals gender justice equals social justice. So these are not separate fights. In a sense, they are the same fight. And this reminds me of a previous conversation on this podcast with someone you may know or not, Vanessa, Angelina Murimirois, who is the CEO of CAMFED, who was, again, She leads one of the Africa's largest NGOs focusing on girls education and empowerment in rural communities. And I think like you, I mean, she share with me that you cannot separate climate, gender, education, economic justice. They are all interconnected system. So I like to keep going now with your, again, your different steps of engagement, Vanessa, after Davos, you founded the Rise Up Movement to address exactly the problem that crop photo represented. Can you tell us more about Rise Up as a Movement and how does your intersectional approach linking climate, race, gender and social justice make it more effective?

VANESSA NAKATE: Yes, actually for Rise Up, it's funny that it was created even before the Davos moment. in a way it feels like, I don't know, I don't know how to explain it or articulate it in words, but the creation of Rise Up movement really happened before the Davos moment. And it was to again, raise a platform to have this platform that amplifies the stories, voices and experiences of activists from the African continent. And little did I know that that moment was going to happen. And I think when that moment happened, it made me realize why the movement was actually started. And with RISE UP, I would say with so many activists that we worked with in Uganda, Kenya, South Africa, Ethiopia, so many activists, we were able to really create this platform that tells African climate stories through using social media, through using blogs, but also organizing. capacity building workshops, climate education forums, youth conferences, and in addition to that, supporting the representation of African activists at the conference of parties. So I would say that that was really the role of Rise Up, to just have this platform that lifts up African activists. from different parts of the continent. And we really did that through the amplification of stories, but also the actual representation in key climate policy moments like COPS. So we would rise up hard a couple of delegations at some climate conferences because we worked to facilitate that, to find resources for that.

VANESSA NAKATE: and I'm really grateful that it was created. And really how it fits into that, I think I've already talked a bit on the intersection of climate and racial justice, more from the aspect of African communities, but also black communities in the United States. But it even goes deeper than that, education. At this point, I think... we should all understand that climate change is, you know, it's a crisis multiplier. It just makes everything worse. It's not just about emissions rising. When disasters occur, a lot happens in the social context, in the communities. And I think many times people pay more attention to the emissions rising. to actually the social impact on communities. And when you're on the ground, you get to see that. When you visit these communities, you get to see that. And you even get to know that for these communities, don't even know the language of emissions, but they know that weather changes are happening. They know the impact. you speak to the farmers, they can tell that the weather patterns have changed. And because of that,

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: impact.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Yeah.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Yep. The impact.

VANESSA NAKATE: they experience failed harvests. And then the failed harvests mean they don't have enough income, they don't have enough food. And when they don't have enough income, it means that they're going to get some of their children out of school because they can't pay for their school fees or tuition. And many times it's going to be the girls dropping out of school. And then you learn that for some families, it's even

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Yeah.

VANESSA NAKATE: was to the point that they forced their girls into early marriages because they received bride price that can help their families recover from the climate crisis. So you realize that it really starts from people talking about emissions, but what is happening on the ground does not even bring the conversation on emissions. It is talking about education. It's about

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Yeah.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: survive.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Yes. is

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Okay.

VANESSA NAKATE: the impact on education, especially for girls. It's about the impact on women when it comes to gender-based violence being exacerbated by scarcity in the home. It comes to the increase in unpaid labor for women in families in their communities. Because when climate disasters occur, when there is food scarcity, when there is water scarcity, it doesn't mean that

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Yes.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Yeah.

VANESSA NAKATE: women are not going to work harder to provide food for their families. The water sources may drop in the community, but that only means more hours of water collection are being added to women's unpaid labor to provide for their families. So you get to see that women are disproportionately impacted, girls are at risk of being forced into early marriages, failed harvests. So there is a lot that really happens beyond emissions. And it goes back to something that you mentioned, that climate change is more than weather. It's more than statistics. It's about people.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Yeah, yeah. It's very clear. I think you've done a great job painting that negative flying wheel, Vanessa, not just, again, those emissions, but actually the anti-systems platform communities that are collapsing because of that. No, I like us because I know that you're also very active in promoting some innovative solutions to actually help out, right? I'd to talk about the Vash Green Schools project that consists in installing solar panels and eco-friendly stoves in New Gannon schools. And this connects to something else I discussed as well on this podcast a few years back. I the pleasure to host Ravi Shah, who's the president of Rockefeller Foundation. And he shared with me the Global Energy Alliance for People on the Planet. It's a $10 billion initiative. to accelerate clean energy access, emerging economies with a major focus on Africa. Now, I'd like you to talk about the Vashbreen Schools project, which is part of this larger movement. It's so important to create that positive flying wheel in this case. So why, and can you tell us, you focus on the schools and what difference does Solar Panel make, actually, beyond energy for the life of students, of teachers, and the entire communities? What is the positive impact of that?

VANESSA NAKATE: Yeah, thank you so much for that question. I think for me, this project, one thing that I really love about it is that it reaches people in the community. It directly impacts people in the community. It benefits people in the community. And it's really, really good to see that. And before I dive maybe deeper into it, I'd like to share, I think at the beginning of this year, I know we asked you. somehow in the beginning of the year, I read this statistic that was talking about global renewable energy investments reaching $2.3 trillion in 2025. And I was really, really excited about this statistic. And then I attend a webinar that was talking about clean energy investments as well. And then one of the... people who are one of the panelists says that, you know, even though, even though, you know, we saw massive increase in renewable energy investments, this actually happened because of the increased demand of electricity by AI data centers. I was, I was surprised. I was really surprised and in a way, I think I went into a moment of, I was really disturbed because I realized that this increase in renewable energy investment is not for people, it's not for communities. It is to advance corporate profits. It's really not for communities. And I was really disturbed by that because I was really excited to see this increase in investment. But then when I go to learn why we have this increase in the first place, I realized that, this is not actually going to benefit the person at the very last mile. And that's why I think projects that reach communities or the grassroots are really, really important that benefit communities directly. And that's why I started the Vashonkyn School's project. In 2019, it also came as an inspiration from a friend of mine.

VANESSA NAKATE: from Switzerland. His name is Tim, who actually supported the five schools with the installation and we gave these schools solar. We also gave them clean cooking stoves. And why did we take this approach? One, the clean cooking stoves reduce on, know, firewood consumption of schools, but they also reduce on the impact of deforestation in those communities. And... you know, they reduce indoor air pollution. They are benefit to the people that prepare the food, but also for the solar, you know, electricity, it helps students be able to, you know, to study and have longer hours of studies because they have electricity. They don't have to use, you know, candles or kerosene lamps in their homes to read their books. So for me, That is one thing that I really love about this project because you will see the impact before your eyes in the community. And we've been able to do that. We've reached 75 schools and so grateful for the people that have supported us along this journey.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Mm.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Yes.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: No, fantastic to give us a sense again of the impact of such initiative and more to be done, obviously, across the continent. Now, I'd like to talk about another type of engagement you have, Vanessa. In January 2022, Malala Yousafzai appointed you to the Malala Fund Board of Directors. For all listeners, Malala Fund is a globalization working to ensure every girl can learn and lead. And since its founding in 2013, The fund has invested over 40 million dollars in education in more than 10 countries, 10 billion girls, sorry, across countries like Afghanistan, Brazil, Ethiopia, India, Lebanon, Nigeria, Pakistan, and Turkey. And the connection is powerful. Four million girls are at risk of losing education due to climate change right now. And that number could reach 12.5 millions already by 25. So help us understand again that connection. You alluded to that before deeply in terms of girls' education and why educating girls is one of the most effective climate solutions actually.

VANESSA NAKATE: Yup, I will. start with my own story. My parents really invested so much in my education, but also in the education of my siblings. And I believe that that gave me, you know, the opportunity, but also, you know, the tools and the knowledge that I needed to engage in spaces like this. And probably if I never had an education, there is a high possibility I wouldn't be an activist. or I wouldn't have got to learn about some of the things that I learned in my journey of activism. So I do believe that education is one of the most powerful solutions to addressing the climate crisis. I remember reading a project, Draw Down lists a hundred things that can... help us address the climate crisis. And most often in the top 10 solutions, education and women empowerment was always there. So for me, even joining the Malala Fund board, it's in the understanding of when girls are educated, then communities...

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Yes.

VANESSA NAKATE: or countries are more positioned to address the climate crisis, but also they are more positioned to, you know, to embrace policies, to initiate and implement policies that ensure the protection of the environment. And I think for so many girls and women, they grow up with that. understanding of the vulnerability they face when it comes to the climate crisis. And I think that greatly positions us to know and understand the necessity to protect the environment and to protect communities. And that's one of the things that also really made me join Project Dandelion. Project Dandelion is represented by this pin that I'm wearing and Project Dandelion is a women-led climate justice campaign. And the work that we do is to amplify, platform, and accelerate women climate solutions in communities. And it's still from that understanding that women are already leading solutions. Women are already transforming their communities. They just need the necessary capacity and resources to be able to scale these solutions in their communities. So that is why I really, my work works also at the intersection of girls' education and women empowering, because I know that when girls are educated, when they grow up, even as they grow up, they already transform the communities, their communities.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Hmm.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Thank

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Sorry, it was a bit cut, Tom.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Okay, it's okay. can continue. So Vanessa, I mean, you are talking about Project Dandelion, right? This is a project co-founded by Mary Robinson, former president of Ireland, right? And chair of the elders. And when she said, think famously, when women lead, action follows. Is that right?

VANESSA NAKATE: Yeah, that's right. And she has also famously said that climate change is a madman problem with a feminist solution. So yes.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: I did another card. That's a better one, actually.

VANESSA NAKATE: Yeah.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Great, great, great, great, coach. Now I'd to move forward actually very, very close today, right, to today. In 2024, again, alongside all this work we've been talking about, you made for people a surprising decision to step back from frontline activism and go to Oxford, where you enrolled in a master of public policy program at Oxford's Lovatnik School of Government. And for many activists, this would feel like abandoning the fight, but you saw it differently, obviously, right? I it was not about abandoning the fight. And based on your years, you know, before we get into that policy study, I'd to go back again to your roots as an activist. What do you see as a superpower of an activist, Vanessa? that you've been building, shaping, and that you continue to drive today.

VANESSA NAKATE: I would say that the understanding of working as a collective instead of working as an individual

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Yep.

VANESSA NAKATE: I read a quote that once said that we don't need individual heroes, we need collective heroes, people working together. And I think that is something that I have learned in my journey of activism, because it is truly, it can be an intense journey, it can be overwhelming, it can be a lot of work. it's also sometimes a really frustrating journey. So there are moments where you feel disappointed, there are moments where you feel tired, there are moments where you even want to give up. However, the understanding of, you know, being able to work within a community, to work with a collective, I think in that there is a hope that it gives you. to continue the work, to know that you're not just doing this by yourself, but there many people who are advancing the same vision. And sometimes there are moments when I feel like, what if I never see the climate justice in my lifetime? And it can be overwhelming to actually think about that. However, what has helped me in such moments is the understanding that, you know, when I think about the people that really fought for civil rights in the civil rights movement, when I think about the people that started the feminism fight, I realized that some of these people may not be here today to see the impact all of the work that they did. And we get to live and experience the benefits of their work, some of the things that they dream to achieve. And it gives me comfort in knowing that the work that I do is not just for myself or something that I would love to see in my lifetime or in my generation. It gives me hope that someone who will come in the next generation, even when I'm not here.

VANESSA NAKATE: might be able to experience and see some of the benefits and achievements of the work that we are all doing. And also deciding to go to Oxford, I'm really grateful that the Bloor-Barthing School of Government. I'm so grateful that the Bloor-Barthing School of Government gave me that opportunity.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Yeah.

VANESSA NAKATE: I was also able to study on the Wade and Hoffman scholarship and it really gave me an opportunity to understand how policy works, something that I did know so much as an activist. And I really hope that I can still make an impact. In another way, it may not be the same way that I have been doing it, but I hope to still make an impact.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Boom.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Yeah.

VANESSA NAKATE: And I think sometimes it's wisdom to know when to pass the mic to other people.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Yeah. So can you tell us more about that reflection you have now Vanessa? Clearly, you've been very active as an activist for many years. You posed while studying public policies. How much of a different activist do you think are you now today? What are the things you're going to do differently given again that learning curve you went through? What do you think about that?

VANESSA NAKATE: I would say that before, when I just started activism and the years that came along that, I would say that I was on the front lines. I was really working so hard on the front lines of the movement and I was engaging in so many interviews and so many public speaking engagements as well across the world. And like I said, you know, you have to be able to to pace yourself because activism can be really tiring. It can be. it can be an overwhelming thing to do, you know, and I think I have grown to learn that, to learn the understanding that for me, activism in my case, it's a marathon, not a sprint, because if you treat it as a sprint, then you're going to burn out. And I did have some of those moments of burnout. But now I know

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Yes.

VANESSA NAKATE: I know when to speak, I know when to engage. I think that will help me sustain my activism for a long time. If I continue to run the way I used to, I am not able to sustain it, and I would love to sustain it.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: I mean, a lot of wisdom in what you just shared Vanessa, given your young age. I wish I had the same wisdom at your age, of pacing to run the marathon as opposed to sprinting all the time. Now, I'd to go back to a moment as well, which I think has been very moving for you. In September of 2022, you appointed UNICEF Goodwill Ambassador and your first trip was to Turkana County in Northwestern Kenya, experiencing the worst drought in 40 years. You visited UNICEF-supported hospitals and nutrition centers. You met children suffering from severe acute malnutrition. You also met mothers who couldn't feed their babies. And you met, in particular, a young boy receiving treatment for malnutrition. And the next day, you learned that he had passed away. In your remarks at the UN, you said, another preventable death. Another life lost because we acted too slowly. People are dying. Children are dying. Can you tell us about that moment and that boy? And do you carry that story? And the way you stay resilient despite those very tragic stories that you've been living with?

VANESSA NAKATE: Yeah, I will start by saying that UNICEF has really given me a platform to be able to talk about these stories and amplify these stories and share them with the world, especially for some of these children who may not be able to get in front of a camera, may not be able to stand on a know, global stage to talk about their experiences. I'm really grateful that I've had the opportunity to talk about this. And it's not easy talking about it. However, I've always told myself that, you know, for many of these children, it is a much worse reality. It's a reality that you know, something that I said earlier, it's a reality of either life or death. There is definitely a thin line. And I saw that when I visited to Kana County as, you know, really excited to meet the children. And I knew what I knew exactly where I was going. I knew there was a drought. I think I just didn't realize how terrible it was. And when I got that hospital and I saw some of these kids and I remember meeting this specific child and he was with his grandmother and she was you know she was worried she she didn't have any hope or she had limited hope and even the doctors in the hospital said that he was in a wasted situation, what they call wasted, meaning that there was really, really limited chance for his survival. And then the next day when we got to learn that he had passed away, it was really hard. It was really, really hard. And it just made me realize that I think I got to see

VANESSA NAKATE: someone die because of malnutrition that was caused by food scarcity, which was exacerbated by the drought. And it made me realize that that could have been a preventable death. And there's so many people right now who are dying and yet they don't have to.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Yeah.

VANESSA NAKATE: they shouldn't have to if the right decisions were being taken to protect communities and preserve their well-being.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Yeah, thanks for sharing that very moving story among many others, obviously touching a lot of the lives in Africa. Now, I'd to shift gears and discuss one of your most consistent themes that we briefly touched on. Your wealthy nations and again, corporations that cause the climate crisis. You believe and many people believe as well that they must pay for loss and damage in vulnerable countries. And at COP29 in November of 24, you made airlines by declining to 10. You called the COP process like a talk show, honestly. And the final agreement of that COP was 300 billion dollars per year by 2035, far short of the 3 of the, sorry, of the 1.3 trillion dollars the honorable nations said that they needed. So can you explain for listeners Vanessa the case for loss and damage finance from a justice perspective? And why is this non-negotiable?

VANESSA NAKATE: Yeah, think for many people as the climate crisis escalates, it's really pushing communities beyond adaptation. And I've said this before that, you know, communities cannot adapt to starvation. They cannot adapt to the loss of their cultures or the loss of their histories. They cannot adapt to the loss of lives. And when... people cannot adapt to the climate crisis anymore, then it becomes loss and damage. And that is why the loss and damage finance is needed to help communities recover from the unadaptable impacts of climate change. I know the loss and damage fund was operationalized and I believe about 700 something million dollars is on that fund right now since it was operationalized and for people on the front lines this is is still not enough. because what people need, people need beyond millions of dollars annually to protect them from climate impacts. So there is still the issue of sustainability, how to sustain and ensure. the flow of the much needed finance in the loss and damage fund and also there have been calls for grant best finance so that countries are not locked into debt that will continue affecting their communities. There's a report that was recently released that was talking about the

VANESSA NAKATE: in the linkage of debt, fossil fuels and gender. And it was basically talking about how when countries are locked in high external debt, they

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: think she's going to rejoin us.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: another priority, I guess. We're almost there. I still have three questions to go.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Yes, it is secure, right?

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: What do you think? I think that's the case, right? Looks better.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Sure.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: I think there were three e-cups, right? Three moments.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Yeah, some editing yet, for sure.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: I as I said, three to four.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Yeah, probably less, but we'll also ask her another couple of additional quick questions. Something we're to work on, by the way, we'll ask Baptiste to do kind of a special series of some of those questions.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: because we've been adding a few for the last few months now.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: I hope she can rejoin because it was probably the this time around was the mobile you cut off.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Yeah.

VANESSA NAKATE: Hello.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: loss and damage and then I'll keep going with the last questions. Okay?

VANESSA NAKATE: Yeah, I will start with the last statement. So when countries are locked in high external debt, then they cannot even support critical social services because most of their money is going towards debt servicing. So it's really important that even the finance that comes to the loss and damage fund comes in the form of grants and not loans.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Yes, so clearly there's a big need of additional financing, which are badly missing for resolving many of the gaps we discussed together, Vanessa. Now, I'd like us to move on for the last segment of our discussion on leadership, because at the end of the day, Pascal said about positive leadership. And so you've seen suffering, injustice and too many broken promises. But yet, it's very clear to me in our conversation, Vanessa, you still believe in the power of people to create the change. And you've said that when the future feels far away, you choose to look for the light already visible in the presence. So what light have you seen recently and what gives you energy and reminds you why this fight matters?

VANESSA NAKATE: I mean, a lot is happening right now in the world to point out to the light or what really, really brings hope in this moment. However, one of the things that I can point out that I think brings a moment of hope is the conference that will be happening in Santa Marta next month on the transitioning away from fossil fuels. It is going to bring a coalition of governments who are or which are endorsing the fossil fuel phase out and the transition to renewable energy and also bring civil society. I do believe this is such a critical moment in the fight for climate justice. And it does make it, you know, it makes it worth it, you know. I would say that I think that makes this fight worth it is I think it's people. The joy or, you know, the peace in my heart that comes with knowing that my work is making the world a better place. I think that for me, it really, really gives me hope. again, on the aspect of leadership, it reminds me of something that one of my professors at the Blavatnik School of Government said when we had just started. the program he said that you know a good leader knows when to step up and when to step down and I think I'm using that a lot in my activism. There are moments when I know I need to step up and speak. There are also moments when I know that I need to step down and pass the mic to someone else.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Mmm. Yeah.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Yes?

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: I love it. So wise again, because again, for listeners, Vanessa, you are just 28 and you have already lived so many chapters, starting again as a lone climate striker, becoming this global voice, UNICEF Goodwill Ambassador, Malala Fond, and now again this Oxford policy graduate. And you've seen changes on both sides, from the front lines of activism and knowing inside the world of policy. And I think you all know at a very important moment, by the way, taking stock of everything you've learned and thinking about how to use it in the next chapter of your journey. So Vanessa, obviously my question is what's next for you? What is the synthesis of the activist you were and the policy leader you are becoming? What is next for Vanessa?

VANESSA NAKATE: Yeah, actually I'm 29 right now. I turned 29 in November and last year. I would say what's really next for me. It's hard to say like this is next for me in the next five years or in the next 10 years. One thing I know is that I want to do the best that I can to continue contributing to the climate justice fight.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Oh-ho!

VANESSA NAKATE: And for now, I'm focusing on doing that through, you know, building and working on climate narratives and also advancing climate policy in the work that I'm doing. So for me right now, the focus will be more on climate narrative and policy, but also remembering that message from my professor. that there'll be moments where I need to step up. And I think in the coming years, I will try to, you know, to be able to identify and know when those moments are happening so that I can step up when it's needed.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Yes.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: Super clear. My very last question, Vanessa, which is a question I love to ask to my guests, what advice would you give to young leaders, young leaders from Africa, from Europe, from the US, from Asia, from all over the world who want to make a positive difference in the world but don't know where to start? What would be your advice for all those young people?

VANESSA NAKATE: When I think about how I started, one it was through inspiration from someone else, another young leader from you know, another part of the world. And I think my advice is always that you don't have to start alone, especially when there are already people in your community that are advancing change either, you know, through environmental work or education or racial justice or like, know, any social issue that you are working on, I think it's always important to find that community because it's really critical in your journey of making the world a better place. When you are alone, it definitely gets lonely and it gets really hard and it gets frustrating and you can almost give up when you are alone. But again, when you are working with people, when you know that you have community, then it's easier to sustain the activism work in whatever. know, field that you're working in. So for me, I would say is just find your community. And when you find your community, then it will make activism much easier.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: and

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: I love it and I love the power of communities indeed, Vanessa, something I've been very committed to all along my life. I believe this is a place to start driving a positive impact in the world. Vanessa, thank you so much for all your wisdom, for this very inspiring, insightful conversation. I know listeners will come away with very powerful lessons about finding their voice, turning adversity into action, and choosing hope even when change feels too slow. And to all our listeners, thank you again for joining us on this Positively Shipped podcast. Feel free, obviously, to subscribe or to share that with your friends. To leave a comment or even five stars is welcome. You check out my newsletter as well every month. And take care of yourself until next time. Stay positive and keep leading with purpose. Thank you so much, Vanessa, for a wonderful conversation.

VANESSA NAKATE: Thank you so much JP as well, I really loved it.

JEAN-PHILIPPE COURTOIS: All right.