Positive Leadership and its foundation in positive psychology (with Dr. Audrey Tang)

Say hello to JP’s first guest: chartered psychologist and author Dr. Audrey Tang. Listen as JP and Audrey explore how Positive Leadership has its roots in positive psychology – and how psychology can help you become a better leader unconsciously, be more empathetic, deal with emotional vampires and more. Also make sure you join the ‘moment of mindfulness’ at the end! 

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JP: Hello everyone, and welcome to the first episode. It is my pleasure to be with you today. We’ll start with the concept of positive psychology. Not just because Positive Leadership starts with positive psychology in the first place, but to be honest, because I'm convinced that to be a good leader, you must invest in building meaningful relationships with people.

And to help us do that I have a special guest, Dr. Audrey Tang. Audrey is a chartered psychologist specializing in positive psychology. She is also an author of very successful books and she hosts the Retrain Your Brain for Success podcast.

I was lucky to speak to Audrey on Teams recently, and she shared with me tips on how to use positive psychology to thrive, the real meaning of empathy, but also to deal with emotional vampires, yes, and more. We even had a moment of mindfulness together at the end. So let's get started. 

Hello. Good afternoon, Dr. Audrey Tang. And let me call you Audrey, if you don't mind?

DR AUDREY TANG: Of course!

JP: I hope you're doing well. It's a pleasure to be speaking to you, Audrey, today. You’re really one of my first guests for The Positive Leadership Podcast. And I had the pleasure to listen to you actually in some of your broadcast appearances, and also really read with interest your two leadership guides to mindfulness and resilience. 

And so today, I'd like you to share what resonated so much with me, with the listeners on the podcast, and engage them on their quest for Positive Leadership. 

So I know Audrey, you dedicated your career to psychology on top of actually graduating in law as well in UK and Philosophy, a Master of Philosophy. So a lot! But you know, I understand that you were also clearly grew up as an only child and maybe, I don't know, that because of that you decided to really research and understand, how does it work with others? Right?

So would you start explaining to us what is your interest in people? 

DR AUDREY TANG:  Of course, well, first of all, JP, thank you so much for having me. This is absolutely my pleasure. And I'm already feeling your positive vibe and that makes me energized as well. So thank you.  

And yes, let's talk about my interest, I guess, in psychology. It did come about because I was an avid reader as a child. Being an only child, I had friends, but otherwise you're surrounded by adults. And adults don't always want to have the same conversations with you as your friends might. And so I used to find a lot of comfort in books and a lot of interest in books. They would engage me. 

But as I grew older, I realized that the books that really caught my attention were not fictional. They were non-fiction books. And the very first book I picked up was Be Glad You're Neurotic, which is really old now and has a lot of parts in it, which perhaps wouldn't be suggested today. But it really got me fascinated in how people think, how differently people think, and also helped me with a little bit of an understanding, because I'm second generation. My parents came over from Malaysia, and they trained as teacher in the UK, liked it, so after they served their time in Malaysia, they came here and taught here until their retirement. 

But one of the big things that I noticed with them, and I have begun to process it now as I'm older, is that they really worried a lot more about fitting in. And that was very important to them. And so a lot of their interactions with me were perhaps not as authentic, but more to do with not showing myself up or not standing out. So that's where I think books really helped me find out who I was, and actually begin to understand why my parents may have behaved as they did. 

JP: Very insightful and interesting about the ‘why’ I guess. We are here together discussing that matter. You know, Audrey, I've read as well, a few, of course, much less than you yourself, a few books on psychology and interacted with some psychologists as well, neuroscience specialists. And I found that a lot of the results done for decades has been mostly focusing on negative impacts of psychology, right? What could go wrong with our brains, with our minds, how it works or is dysfunctional? So the question is, why did you decide, if I understand well, to focus on the positive side of psychology. And how do you get the best out of that? 

DR AUDREY TANG:  Psychology is here to do three key things. It explains the why and it helps us understand. It predicts, so it gives us an idea of what could happen if that behavior continues. But it also is there to help. 

And there are two quite distinct schools in psychology now. Psychology originated by being there to really think about how do we help people who have mental suffering or are suffering from mental ill health? And there is a place for that. It is still sadly underfunded, and you need specialist training for that, which is very important.

But to become specialists in anything, I don't believe you can diversify too greatly, at least not professionally. You need to have an area which you enjoy, and which you can focus on and learn much more about it. It's all very well being the jack of all trades, but it's really important as well to have some key areas of focus. 

But with that, it was in the 80s when Martin Seligman, who is known as the founder of positive psychology, became the president of the American Psychological Association. And he originally researched depression. But he then found something strange. He was testing a concept called learned helplessness where the idea is, if you can't control your environment, you kind of give up, you learn to be helpless. But he realized that there was some… It was experiments on animals, which wouldn't be ethically permitted now, but there were some dogs who didn't give up, they kept going. And that really fascinated him. And he wanted to know, what was it that actually was resilient about those dogs? What was it that made certain people, as well, despite the adversity they may face, actually keep going, and then even flourish and thrive through it? 

So, for me, you've got psychology, which can help you… most of us function around a sort of okay. Psychology can help you when you're not okay. It can certainly help you when you're not okay to suffering. But when you're okay, again, why stop there? Positive psychology says, why not thrive? Why not flourish? Why not push beyond okay? And that is something that really makes me smile, and really gets me going. So that's why I focus on positive psychology. 

JP: Thanks a lot for clearly exposing the foundation of that. And also the fact that, you know, at a time of focus on mental wellness, we also need to take care of people who struggle clearly with mental health issues. Absolutely. 

Hey, you know, what I've really enjoyed a lot about reading your books and watching you as well, Audrey, is the way you try to apply in a very practical way, positive psychology to all kind of leadership situations, across business, organizations, I guess government institutions as well, even NGOs. I understand you're actually involved as well with some NGOs. 

And so I’d like you, if you can, to, you know, kind of educate on the basics of that psychology. Positive psychology for leaders and where to start? And how do you apply some of the core academic concepts, I would say, in their lives to start with? I know it's a big question, but if you can get to the basics of that, it'd be wonderful. 

DR AUDREY TANG: It is, it is. But I think there are a few key things that come from positive psychology that we can employ immediately as leaders. 

The first thing to remember is that psychology, or positive psychology, is not a Pollyanna quality. It's not about saying everything's happy, and everything's perfect. It is about accepting things as they are, and then working to make those things better. However, what positive psychology would say is that there are a few things that will actually help us as leaders, and help us if our teams also think and behave in these particular ways. Because these little things energize us. If we feel energized, we are better able to buffer the stresses of 21st century living, we are better able to cope. And we're better able to find the headspace to take a moment to breathe, to step back and say, right, I know my emotional reactions are instinctive, but I can choose how I respond. And that's one of the most important things. 

And the acronym that's used in positive psychology is PERMA. P-E-R-M-A.

P stands for positive emotions, and one of the simplest things that you can do is build up a bit of a positivity reservoir. In other words, take screenshots of lovely things or memories or people that you love. 

Another thing that I think is important for leaders and teams to do is to take screenshots of when a client says, “Thank you, you've been wonderful”. Because they don't have to send that! The amount of times we will sit there and say, “Oh, you know, I put in so much work, but no one thanks me”. People don't have to send a thank you. So when they do respect it and hold it and value it for what it is. So take those screenshots, build up that positivity reservoir. 

E stands for energy and energizing and engagement. So engagement is when you find excitement in what you do. It’s known as flow. And when you're engaged in something, you know that time just flows by. But so often, we get stuck in work or get stuck in doing tasks, which perhaps don't engage us. The secret there is to not necessarily throw our toys out the pram and say, “Oh, I'm not going to do this anymore”. But actually, to say, “Well, what bit of this really engages me? Is it maybe the face to face with my team? Is it the meeting with clients? Is it the data?” And when you’ve identified what engages you… do a bit more of it – if you can. Maybe delegate the other tasks. 

R stands for healthy relationships. So, so important. Even if we're either a social butterfly, or we prefer just sitting with one other person, and that's it, that's fine, it absolutely doesn't matter. But again, Seligman says we need human contact. Because whilst human contact does not necessarily guarantee happiness, happiness is not necessarily found without it. So whatever the level we want, make sure the people we surround ourselves with energize us and are our champions and our cheerleaders. If we are surrounded by too many exhausting or toxic people, we can't help but take on that kind of feeling. 

M stands for meaning. So again, reflect on what is important in your life. And again, see if you can bring that into your work. If your family is meaningful to you, have a photograph of them on your desk, if you can, or maybe even suggest something like a family day. Just because it hasn't been done before doesn't mean you can't suggest it. So work out what you find meaningful and bring that in. 

And A is actually achievement. But as humans, we think, “Oh, it's got to be titles, or promotions, or money”. No! Think about the little wins. Even today, for example, if someone has tuned in to this podcast because they've said themselves, “I'm going to do something for my self-development, I'm going to listen to this podcast”, that's a little win. So well done you. Don’t focus always on the great big things. Just pick up those little energizers every single day. And so that's what underpins positive psychology. And if we energize ourselves, we are better able to deal with the stresses of leadership. And as such, even unconsciously, we can become better leaders. 

JP: Well, it's a wonderful framework. And obviously, there's a lot more meat around the bone, on PERMA.

But I love what you talked about in terms of gratitude, in terms of really understanding where you can capture those moments of positive energy, to carry energy to others as well. The way you create those meaningful relationships with people that really drive you as well. the way you have, obviously, a meaning in your life, hopefully. And the way you and the way you can really have those little wins and improve every single day. So love it. Thanks. Thanks so much. 

Hey, Audrey, I think all of us have gone and learnt a lot over the past 14 months with the pandemic, for sure. There's a lot of, I would say, you know, new realities emerging for people. You know, in our senior leadership team at Microsoft, we discuss like every week, if not every couple of days, the crisis and what do we need to do to take care of the people, the team's morale, and so on and so forth. 

And certainly, as I engage as well, with CEOs in many large organizations around the world, I found out, there's a big difference when leaders show truly empathy and vulnerability with their people. In a meaningful way, of course, not in a cosmetic way. So can you… Do you see the same? And did you see as well through the pandemic, kind of an urgency for some leaders to kind of change their styles in a way? 

DR AUDREY TANG:  Yes, very much so. The thing that the pandemic did was, it was a great leveler. We weren't all in the same boat. We all had very different experiences. Some of us were blessed to have our lovely houses, others were not. But we all faced the same storm. So that brought a shared collective understanding. 

With that, we also began to look at how people were treating each other. And by the same token, perhaps treating us. And it wasn't just empathy, but actually ethics played a big part in leadership. 

Along with that was probably transparency. Because when everybody is thrown into crisis, a lot of the time, instinctively we're just trying to survive. But if we're trying to survive, that makes us quite selfish sometimes. And we don't look out for other people quite so much. 

So the leaders that stood out, were the ones who realized, yes, this is a situation we've never faced before. Yes, perhaps we made mistakes, or even perhaps I'm making mistakes right now. But I can stop, I can step back, I can hold my hand up and I can make this right. Not just right, so people see it, but right so I can live with that. I'm happy and morally comfortable with that. 

And so when it comes to empathy, I think one of the most important things to understand is that empathy is not simply wallowing with the other person or just sitting there and holding their hand and not doing anything. Or even – and this is worse – making it all about you. Oh, I understand that because I was here and I did that… not empathy at all. What empathy is, is feeling for somebody, but in a way that motivates you to try and do something about it. 

However, what you do can vary. And one of the best questions I would ask my clients to ask themselves is, what will be of most help now? And sometimes what will be of most help right now is sitting and listening, and not judging and giving someone a sounding board. Sometimes it might be saying to somebody, “Well, what would you like me to do? How can I actually help you?” And other times it might be signposting someone or actually doing something. But it varies. So that one of the best things that we can do to make empathy really effective is to ask “How best can I help you? What will be the most effective thing I can do for you right now?” And so empathy is all about moving things forward. 

But the other thing that leaders also need to do to improve their empathy is probably practice a little bit of self-compassion for themselves. Because when we… And this is not self-esteem, self-compassion is very different to self-esteem. But when we love ourselves, and we care about ourselves, it is so much easier to care about other people, because we know how powerful that can be. 

And self-compassion is about using kind words to ourselves, but not using comparisons. So rather than saying, “Oh, I didn't win that race, but at least I didn't come last”, which is a self-comparing statement. It's, “I didn't win that race, but I worked really hard and I'm proud of myself for doing that”. 

Because if we can boost up ourselves, and the voice that we have in our own head is positive… Actually, when we're kind to other people, we're not feeling resentful. Because if we're not kind to ourselves, and we're critical to ourselves, and then we're trying to be kind to someone else, there will also be that little voice saying, “Well, who's going to be kind to you?” You! You need to be kind to you.

JP: I love that. I love that, that development you shared with us, Audrey. Because when I think about Positive Leadership, I think about kind of three circles of impact. And to me it always starts with yourself, oneself. If you cannot, as you said, have some self-compassion, self-esteem as well, self-awareness, a lot of ‘selfs’, kind of understanding… You know, it'll be very hard for anyone of us, any leaders, potentially, to truly connect in a meaningful way to the second circle, which is the people. It could be a family, I guess. It could be your team members. It could be a very large enterprise, an NGO, where you can have a beginning of a really, I would say, meaningful relationship that we establish with them. 

And eventually, obviously, I’m very obsessed positively with the way we can also bring a purpose-led organization to have a bigger impact in society, in the third circle, if I may say so. 

So I don’t know if that makes sense for you, but this is kind of a way I love that, as you talk about empathy as one of the, I would say, behavioral skills development, we need to exercise differently. And I think I've seen more attempts to do better in that crisis. 

DR AUDREY TANG:  Yes, I think that's really positive. And again, this is where the little wins come in. It's sometimes about recognizing that and telling people, “Hey, you know what, I know you would struggle normally, but you've done really well”. 

Another lovely little exercise is even getting them to think about, “How would I have reacted a year ago?” And they will probably find in doing that reflection, they would have done things quite differently. And that allows them to focus on how far they've come. 

JP: Yeah, let's continue to build on this discussion about pandemic new habits, using Teams or other digital meeting platforms that are proliferating the planet, hopefully helping a lot of people to respond as well to many needs. 

You know, clearly, I've been experiencing that myself. I used to travel the world, many places, to be in the US, in Africa, in Asia, in Europe, all the time for the company. And I love being with people all the time clearly, with clients, with partners, with people, talents, etc. 

Clearly, we've all learned to go through Teams connections, meetings, digital meeting connections. So I've discussed with many people about those emotional connections. Are they gone because of that? 

I'm actually not personally negative of that. I'm positive. I think what I've seen, and I’d love to get your impression, that I've seen all of us trying to actually better listening to all those faces you could see on your screen and be a lot more inclusive in a way. 

Sometimes I can tell you, to share my own experiences, we've been probably more inclusive now that we've been in the past in some physical big meetings with people, where some people would not, you know, risk raising their hand, a little voice… for all kinds of reasons. 

So anyway, I see some positives but yet, of course, it doesn't replace that human vibes, human lives happening when we meet. 

So what is your view on that Audrey, as you’ve met with many of those people as well?

DR AUDREY TANG:  The funniest thing is, if you'd asked me this a year ago, I would have said, “Oh, I can't bring teaching online, you’d miss the face-to-face interaction”. And certainly, what I have missed is if I have a big class, I can't see their faces. So I don't know whether they're getting it or not. Whereas if I was standing in lecture theatre – I know. You can feel the room, you can read the room.  

However, having now moved online for delivering all of my sessions, what I have found is so many people saying, “Oh, thank you for doing it online, because if I have to leave halfway, because I have to pick my child up from school, I can come and watch the video afterwards”. Or “My time zone is completely different, so I'm able to watch that at a later point.” And you're absolutely right. Using things like a chat function and even the emoji reactions, it allows people to interact a little bit more, especially when they wouldn't have in the first place. 

One of the exercises I used to do when it came to brainstorming was actually ask people to write down what they wanted to say, rather than speak it, because otherwise you've got the louder people shouting first. And writing it down really helps. And that's exactly the same thing. When you've got this digital forum, people feel more able to write. And when they write… that message isn't lost in the ether, because it is always on that chat function. 

Of course, it brings other issues such as recording and permissions and things like that. But that also teaches us to be a little bit more mindful. So we ask those questions beforehand. And I think what's really nice about it… is that, certainly, if I'm coaching or seeing somebody one-to-one to discuss, say presentation skills or something like that… Whilst in a presentation skills session, I would always say to them, “Can I record this because I think you need to watch this back?”, there's an automatic function for them to be able to record it, play back things that they might have missed, really focus on themselves and think about their own, say, presentations in front of the camera. 

So there's been a few techniques people have had to learn. But I think the benefits of the digital technology really help. And personally too, you've got your extroverts who are very social butterflies, you get energized by being around people. But you've also got the introverts who really want to see their friends and family…but they don't want to see them all the time. Which means that having the option to use Teams or to use an online platform means they can drop in without actually having to be there for the whole duration of the party.  

JP: No, absolutely right. And I've seen as well, a lot more, I would say, positive inclusive signals sent to also all kinds of minorities or diverse set of talents who honestly had a more challenging time in the past in physical settings only… to raise their voice or participate even more. So I think it's been actually a good development. 

Now, let me build on that discussion. You know, clearly, leaders are adapting, I think, in a way to this new world of emotion, which is this hybrid world of emotions, okay? And as I see myself, you know, as I've grown up for years, certainly the last few years, I realize that I cannot just contain emotion at home in my personal life, and not in the office, right? And I would say, you know, I'm part of this generation, Audrey, who's tried to compartment things, right. My business life, my personal life… And I've done it for so many years. 

But for the last five years plus, actually, before the pandemic, I realized that wow, the world has changed. And I think unless you really, you know, are not trying to, if you're not trying to establish a seamless bridge between all your lives, it's going to be hard to be really authentic. 

But I find it as well challenging in my own family, to tell you the truth, to exercise my Positive Leadership muscle with my daughters, and to coach them. So I wanted to take you on that one because many listeners on this podcast may have the same feeling. Which is okay… I'm trying to be more open about that emotion at home, at work and more. But you know, I'm a dad, I’m a mum as well… How do I adapt my leadership style as a parent as well, in a meaningful way, while remaining authentic, you know, in my lives? Does it make sense to you? 

DR AUDREY TANG:  Yes, it does. It does! And I would actually suggest maybe see your family as another team. And in the same way as you would work with your teams at work, and you would ask them, “Is this working for you? How best do you respond to leadership?” Even you might be asking those questions. It’s asking similar sorts of questions! What will help right now? What will be the most effective thing to us, for me to do right now? 

The thing about family is, we often probably lose patience faster, we have assumptions, we expect them to know how we're feeling. And also, we're so desperate to see them succeed and do well that we actually end up kind of pushing everything onto them. 

But there is such a thing as… There's push leadership, and there's pull leadership. And sometimes it may be that we have to stop pushing, and we have to start drawing out of them what they actually need from us, as we would if we were meeting a new team. 

An example of a game I've played is the blindfold one. It’s the one where you walk around, so someone's blindfolded, and someone else pushes them along and guides them. And actually, I've reversed it. So when you're blindfolded, the other person has to walk backwards and pull you. And that, when you reflect on it, people have said, I'm so much more comfortable when you were pulling me. And that says quite a lot, because I think sometimes you go slower when you're walking backwards as well. But when you are also learning from the other people, and we speak to our teams all the time, why not do exactly the same thing at home? It’s not necessarily about trying to transfer the same behaviors from one place to another. But it is about using the soft drivers, things like patience and openness and communication, and asking people, “What is going to help you?” Because like in the workplace, some people don't need coaching or don't want coaching or won't respond to it. So you need to find a different route. Same thing with our families. 

JP: Thanks so much for your wisdom which I will try to translate in my family experiences – my family team – as a next step of my personal development, Audrey. You know, let me share as well with you a moment I had in my career, as well, which really impressed, I mean, created a strong impression on words that matter, and as well, I would say positive encouragement.

When I was a few years younger, managing the French subsidiary for Microsoft. At this moment where we are reviewing the business for the company, for the French business with our CEO at the time, Steve Ballmer, who used to be the CEO of Microsoft. And Steve is a very, very exceptional individual. A person I love a lot, but very intense as well in his presence. We're all sitting in a small room, in a you know, in, you know, office in, in a suburb of Paris, in Les Ulis, okay. And well, I was presenting 100 slides of the business, and honestly, the business at the time was not in good shape. It was really challenging, I had to slice prices, to actually adjust to meet the competitive environment. And my financial projections were not great.

So after like eight hours of presentation, that was the end of the meeting, I said, “Wow, maybe I'm done with my career at Microsoft, because that was really tough.” Well, tough business matters, in terms of the discussion. By the end of the day, Steve ended the conversation with an incredible set of words. Encouraging me, trusting me, showing confidence saying, “Hey, JP, I trust you're going to turn around the business with your team. Because of, you know, a number of things we have noticed you doing but because of the, probably, engagement, passion, and willingness to do a lot more, differently”. 

And so, you know, just the day after, of course, I was relieved, because okay, I still have a job. But more importantly, I realized that those words gave me so much positive energy in terms of my own confidence back to my own team, to go and turn around the business. Which we did, thankfully, and so did Microsoft. But that really, you know, gave me the impression of Positive Leadership. So would you have the same experience working with business leaders as well, and the way you translate that to their leadership styles as well?

DR AUDREY TANG:  The key thing that you have actually put your finger on here was that

the mind is a little bit like a computer… in that what goes in actually comes out. So before that conversation, you were thinking, “Oh, no, this is the end of my career at Microsoft”. But after that conversation, when you were given, “I trust you, I know you're going to turn it around”, you had a different view of the very same conversation. 

Nothing had changed. The figures hadn't changed. You hadn't suddenly sold more things. But what had changed was what went in. And that, in turn, you then took to your teams as well. So whilst they're sitting there, and in their mind, the way they're seeing the story, their narrative, is maybe more negative. By actually bringing a positive reframing of the situation, it can encourage them to see new ideas, to be inspired, to be motivated. 

And so that is one of the key parts of positive psychology. It is knowing that the thoughts we put in are often the things that can actually change or affect our behavior. Therefore, it's very important to put positive but realistic thoughts in. At no point were you told, “Oh, I know, you're going to make millions”. And I'm sure you did! 

But it was realistic. It was “I trust you”. It was things that you were able to fulfil. And that's important as well. So whilst we are reprogramming our minds, or recalibrating how we see that particular situation, we need to keep it as real as possible as well. 

JP: Super well said. And certainly, I feel the same actually today, like 20 years after that happened. 

You know, on the contrary, Audrey, I mean, certainly you, myself, many listeners have experienced as well, people who actually… I think you call them emotional vampires, right? I heard you saying that in a podcast. Kind of like, well, it's a bit repulsing the wording that you use, but emotional vampires to me are who people really sucking your energy, right? 

DR AUDREY TANG:  Yeah, they suck the energy out of the room and out of you and you just feel exhausted.

JP: Yeah! And so what is your advice? Because all of us have to deal sometimes. And I obviously, I must admit myself, I've been probably one of those emotional vampires from time to time with my teams. I have been. 

And I realized after I did it, that wow, that was not necessarily a smart way to express my confidence, nor my, you know, positiveness with the team. So how do you deal with that in your life, in your business, etc.?

DR AUDREY TANG:  First of all, if you're talking about yourself, then recognizing it is the first quality of being able to prevent yourself from doing it. Because remember, we can always choose our behaviors. 

But this is a really nice exercise that I give to people. And I use a cup of tea, just as an image, because a cup of tea is warm, and it's inviting, and you like to spend time with people having a cup of tea. And you put the names of the people that you really like to spend time with, in that cup. And you say, “Why? What are their values? What is it you're drawn to?” And you might have a few cups, or you might have just one or two, and that's absolutely fine. But then you look at those values, the things that you like to see in other people, and then you try and behave in those ways yourself. 

Because it's only when you behave in those ways can we really attract those behaviors back to us. Because we teach people how to treat us. And if we're behaving in quite aggressive or even passive aggressive ways, or we do suck the energy out the room, how is it we can expect these wonderful, bubbly people, generous, kind – the values we've identified – to actually want to come back to us? 

So we need to be aware of that. But there's an extra special tip that I really, really like. I use gratitude a lot. And one of the areas that I practice is “Who am I grateful for in my life?” And I notice, if you do this over a period of time, say even a week, the same names will pop up, very similar names. And some names will not pop up. 

And then what you do is you notice the pattern, and you seek to actively spend more time with the people whose names pop up all the time. And then you end up phasing the others out. And it's not nasty! It just happens to be, “I'm really sorry, I don't have time because I'm already doing something else”. Or alternatively, if you recognize the ones who really energize you, you spend time with them, and it energizes you more and makes those moments with the more draining people that little bit more bearable. 

JP: Fantastic. I love to take more tea with you, Audrey…

DR AUDREY TANG: Oh, likewise!

JP:  …To celebrate all the people we have gratitude for because I think it's great. 

But certainly, from time to time, you see it as well, you know, we all have some blind spots. You know, including ourselves, honestly, not driving that positive energy. So how do you deal with it in a positive way to try to address the blind spots. As you, I know, advise some leaders and others to change the way they lead?

DR AUDREY TANG:  It can be using a very simple exercise. And this one, as a business leader, you will know this one, it is the SWOT analysis. It's the one where you have the strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats if you're going to open a business somewhere. 

But actually, you can think about that in yourself. What are your strengths? What are your weaknesses? Based on that, what are the possible opportunities that you have? And where are your possible blind spots? Or perhaps what other people have told you. 

So 360 feedback is always helpful anyway, if certain patterns keep coming up, that's obviously something that we need to focus on. 

But often, when we think about the SWOT analysis, we don't really apply it to ourselves. And actually, I think it's a very powerful tool for making things visible to us. 

Also, it can be that asking other people can help. However, there is one particular blind spot, which I would hasten, I guess, you may fall prey to yourself… And that is charismatic leaders. 

If you are a charismatic leader, and your team like you, and they really enjoy being around you… they don't want to tell you your weaknesses. They don't want to tell you where you've stumbled. And you might be saying to them, “Oh, please tell me I'm asking you”. But they still don't want to do it. 

So there, you sometimes need to maybe get feedback from an outside person. Like a coach, like a mentor, even a leadership forum. Although be very careful with what you look at on the internet! 

But one of the… I love this, this phrase. It comes from the movie Rush. And James Hunt says it to Niki Lauda. He says, “You have more power when people like you”. And I know what he means by that, but I think it's also a warning sign. Because for charismatic leaders, you have a lot of power when people like you, which means that you have to be even more vigilant over where your possible areas of weakness are. 

And sometimes, it can even be that you almost set people up to want your opinion and to need your opinion, because you're always so exuberant and happy. Whereas you need to learn perhaps coaching phrases, such as “What do you think is the best thing to do?” or “What options have you tried?” And so coaching can really help a charismatic leader, I think, learning how to coach.

JP: I certainly love this coaching mindset you have Audrey. And you know, something I've tried to practice as well is to be more curious about people, to be more patient as well, kind of be lazy before providing any solutions. As opposed to really supporting the people, encouraging them to come up with the best of their thinking, proposals, engagement, that they will have eventually. 

But it's super important to keep ourselves honest on where we stand, because I know I've got my own opportunities for development all the time as well. And so you’re right that we need to get some others stakeholders, sometimes, who give us that reflective view on where we can keep growing as leaders. 

Let’s expand this question to the organization level. I know you work with many large enterprises. But you also work with leaders, CEOs, and others to build resilient organizations. Actually, I read the book you did, which is a great one. There's a lot of tools and templates and more. And you have a chapter on how you can shape resilient organizations. So could you share with us at a high level, how would you advise someone leading an organization to build it?

DR AUDREY TANG:  You need to appreciate your organization in context. And that is the context in which it is situated, that can be the immediate environment, the other businesses that are around you. But also the wider social context, your community, and even perhaps the culture that you're in, or the one that you want to go into. Because when it comes to resilience in itself, I like to see resilience in three different stages. 

The first is survival when a crisis hits. That’s unexpected, we all end up just scrambling around and trying to cope. So most of us can actually do that. But where the resilient organization begins to shine is the next two bits. 

Once we have survived crisis, the next problem is we become exhausted. A lot of our resources are depleted. All of the people who perhaps were helping us… maybe we actually had to let go, maybe we can't use them anymore, maybe because we've had to save money or whatever the reasons might be. 

So at that point, we need to then find a way of rebuilding, even when we don't have the same resources as we had, even if we don't have the same connections, or even if our clients have gone elsewhere, or are looking for different things, or have different needs. 

And that's where keeping our finger on the pulse of the community… What are our clients doing and looking for now? Where could we actually pull in resources? What was missing at the point of crisis that I can actually find somewhere else? And as we're rebuilding, we use that information to feed where we're going to go. 

Because there's no point rebuilding in exactly the same way as it was before. And that's why it does frustrate me when resilience… “Oh, it's bouncing back?”. No, not necessarily, because why bounce back to the same place if that place is no longer going to serve you?

It's about looking future forward and thinking, “Where am I going with this and who is around there to help me?” And with that, we do need to reach out to our communities. We need to be able to give back as much as they give us as well. So building those networks is really important. 

And then when you have rebuilt, the next stage is to then push even further and to thrive. So again, the leader and in turn the organization, because I personally believe that the organization is, as a body, it can learn, and it takes on the behaviours of the leader and the teams. But if that organization is always looking to grow and looking to expand and looking to help, or whatever those key values of that organization is… That is how through moving forward, you can actually thrive because you're finding meaning, you're finding growth, and you're probably even finding other networks that become just as helpful to you. 

But it's all about remembering your organization does not function in a vacuum.

JP: No. Fantastic, Audrey. Because I think there's so much strength we can really build into our organization if we are meaningful, intentional, again, on the purpose, and the way we connect with the broader communities. 

We're almost coming to an end, Audrey. So one of my last question is actually a very important piece, I think, about leadership and for any one of us, honestly – mindfulness. I mean, again, you've done some really great work in mindfulness. But could you share with us, if you can, a moment of mindfulness? Can we practice some of that together? Just a short moment, so that we can clear up our mind right, here right now together with our listeners? 

DR AUDREY TANG:  Absolutely, we can. And now for your listeners, I do have a prop. It's a breathing ball where, as you open the ball you breathe in, and as you close it, you breathe out. And they're very easy to get hold of. They’re not expensive either. 

Now, a lot of people think with mindfulness, it's about yoga, and breathing and meditation. It's not. Those are great ways of being mindful. But being mindful is about being present. And also, sometimes being mindful is actually getting ourselves out of that overthinking habit. It’s getting ourselves out of our heads. And that's why I use a breathing ball. 

But if you're not using a breathing ball, you can just simply follow the seconds on the clock and count those or count the paving stones or count the bricks in a wall. Either works because that just gets us out of our heads. 

So what I'd like you to do is do a couple of affirmations. And then I'm going to take you through a reflective, active meditation, which is not just “Let's just think about blue light” or anything like that. But it's an actual way to… we can actually focus on our ideal lives. But let's do the affirmations first.

So breathing in through the nose… two, three. And out through the mouth… two, three, four. I'm going to ask you to breathe once more. And then just to carry on focusing on your breathing… and out through the mouth. We always start with breathing because it helps ground us. 

And now as you're breathing in and out, repeat the following affirmation. Even if I cannot control anything else, I can control my breathing. And again, once more. Even if I cannot control anything else, I can control my breathing. And last time, just for luck. Even if I can't control anything else, I can control my breathing. 

And now as you breathe, you can always use affirmations at any point. They are great thing to focus your mind positively. But I'd like you now to do a little active visualization. And that is to think about your ideal life. 

What is inside your ideal life? Take yourself through an ideal day. Where do you live? What do you do? What are you wearing? Who do you surround yourself with? What does the voice in your head say? How do you speak to yourself? And really get an idea, even if it's not clear right now, but get an idea of what your ideal life is going to look like.

And one of the most important reasons for looking at what we want to achieve is if we don't, otherwise, how will we know that we have achieved it? So really get that thought in your mind. I’m going to ask you to breathe in and out once more. And then I'm going to give you a final task to do with that thought. Then breathing out. And hopefully, that's just found a little bit of peace, you pressed pause for a minute. 

But now, with that information on your ideal self, the last little challenge I will leave you with is: any time you consciously catch yourself behaving in certain way, ask yourself on a continuum, is this moving me towards my ideal life? Or away from it? And then know that you can make your choices.

JP: Well, thank you so much, Audrey. I've taken a lot of good fresh air here, through my nose and my mouth. Honestly, a very good moment of mindfulness and I certainly applaud the, I would say, the ongoing practices in our lives to find this ideal time. 

Let me conclude now, certainly with a question I love to ask all the all the great people I have on this podcast. I'm sure listeners have enjoyed a lot, clearly your comments, your wisdom as well. You know, what was the last thing that excited you so much, that you've carried that moment into positive energy with others?

DR AUDREY TANG:  I love that question. And there are there's so many things. And this is a really silly one, I think. I have a little doggie, and I've had her now for 11 years, she was a rescue. But recently, she's been diagnosed with diabetes, and she's gone blind. And one of the things that we've done is we've now installed a ramp into the garden, so she doesn't have to go down the stairs. 

And it was such a struggle getting her to use this ramp because she's blind. She didn't know what it was. And the first time she went down the ramp by herself, and then went straight to the door and managed to navigate the step… I just…it was so lovely. I really wish I videoed it so I could keep watching it and watching it. It was just one of those moments of… And this is where I think happiness is not just that energy and positivity. It can be relief! It can be that feeling of calm, that feeling of thank goodness as well. And that's really what I was feeling with this mix of “Oh my gosh, that's amazing. But she's okay, she can do it. Thank goodness for that”.

JP: Wonderful, wonderful, I can almost visualize that as well and gives me a lot of a lot of positive energy, as well Audrey, into the rest of my day. 

Let me thank you a lot. And let me just share a few I certainly, you know, learnings I had through the podcast. And of course, there's many of them. 

But I would say number one, certainly, speak to yourself. I can relate to that. Speak to yourself, to this little voice inside ourselves. Sometimes we could be a dictator. So make sure you can, you know, you can really master in a way, that voice. To actually translate your words into behaviors and to more, into your life. 

I love, as well, this projection to the ideal life in the exercise we just did. Because I think it brings a lot of energy as well in many moments we have. 

And certainly, the third takeaway is the way you you've been really reflecting on building your own resiliency. And the way you can do that by taking care of yourself, number one, and the way you can expand on that in driving the same needs for the team as a family, as an organization, as an NGO, to make a positive impact in the world. 

So that would be my few takeaways, Audrey. It was wonderful moment spent with you. And I wish you tons of success in your in your life. 

DR AUDREY TANG:  Thank you, JP. And you asked me what energizes me that I'm going to carry on throughout the whole day and probably throughout the whole week, is this interview, this podcast. Thank you for sharing your positive vibe with me. 

JP: Thank you so much and be safe and be well, Audrey. 

DR AUDREY TANG: You too.

JP:  I hope you all had a good time learning from Audrey. I know I did. By learning more about positive psychology, which is the foundation of positive leadership, so we can see why it's so important to energize yourself so that you can be more resilient, more empathetic and at the end of the day, be a better leader for your teams. And I’d love to hear from you which tips you find useful. Thank you again to Audrey and to you for listening. Next time we’ll be speaking to my good friend, Starbucks CEO, Kevin Johnson. I hope that you can join me.